1641 replies to this topic

[lzheyi]

I think the main problem is that we just don't have the time and chances for our youth players to grow into where we would like them to be.
It is not by chance that Borini is now the main striker for Roma and had been scoring goals regularly.
It is also not by chance that Stoch is performing well for both twente and fenebarche. Yes they are not EPL but I cannot see how he can do worse than our players at present.
And now, many people have ask AVB to go and how is he able to give youngsters chances when he is in such a big pressures to deliver results?

[Droy was my hero]

LosNumerados, on 20 February 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

You take it waaaay too seriously.
What I am saying, is for instance... you know when you hear all these reviews of films from critics, this film is great, this film is bad etc. etc. Sometimes we are too influenced on their opinion, then you watch it for yourself & you feel like.. "Woow, they made it sound so much better/worse". This is why I say don't trust managers opinions & make up your own minds.

Not necessarily that I'm saying you all are better than managers or whatever, I am saying that they are prone to mistakes & it's better to have your own opinion on them.
It's just like when someone says that they don't like a particular type of food, it's still good to encourage people to try it for themselves. Rather than making decisions on 2nd hand assessment.

But of course the major difference is that when you order food for yourself, you are the one who eats it. When you order a player for CA or AVB, he is the one who has to play him and play him to his system in his chosen 11.
And generally, while some of us might like low budget Arts cinema, the big producers with the big bucks generally DO make films that on average bring in big revenues.

Each to his own taste, but the only objective measure of talent/quality is the market.

LosNumerados, on 20 February 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Btw, the plan was to sell Alonso to Arsenal THAT season, but, it couldn't go ahead until they secured Barry which they did not manage to do. Alonso said he made his mind up after that , that he wanted to go. I know that he did not go that season.
......
Here is Alonso talking about it. I notice you are very antagonistic to my posts which is cool lol. One thing I defo agree on though, I am just an 'Internet Punter'
http://www.skysports...5851576,00.html

Explanations of moves after the event are always dubious - Alonso felt he needed to give a story for leaving Liverpool and he gave one. Knowing what we do about Liverpool fans, I'm not in the least bit surprised he felt he needed a good story. And it is a good story. But I don't believe his version for a minute.

Antagonistic - I stopped overreacting to your posts after a couple of days - about the time it became clear that you are living in the mortal world with us internet punters. And it isn't normally posters I react to, but pretend facts, especially pretend facts created by those who think their opinions need a little support.
One particulary "pretend fact" that get my goat up is the one that says that good young players fail only because the manager doesn't play them. It's an incredibly self-serving argument and the cause/effect is the reverse of natural logic. You got a bit close to that, but I hope you noticed I wasn't taking a directly opposite point of view - just riding on one of my hobby horses a bit.

Strong opinions are fine, especially strong and interesting opinions like yours.

[Droy was my hero]

lzheyi, on 20 February 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

. Yes they are not EPL but I cannot see how he can do worse than our players at present.

Whereas I cannot see how still young and largely unproven young men would succeed in a team in such disarray that even the likes of Torres & Malouda are reduced to looking poor. Surely the, 'they can't be as bad as Torres' argument is trumped by the "surely shouldn't be playing this badly" one.

chiswickblue, on 19 February 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I was always upset that Ranieri didn't rate Jon Harley. Turns out he was right.

9 times out of 10 that is the way. And yet we all get surprised when it happens.

[zenyatta20]

lzheyi, on 20 February 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I think the main problem is that we just don't have the time and chances for our youth players to grow into where we would like them to be.
It is not by chance that Borini is now the main striker for Roma and had been scoring goals regularly.
It is also not by chance that Stoch is performing well for both twente and fenebarche. Yes they are not EPL but I cannot see how he can do worse than our players at present.
And now, many people have ask AVB to go and how is he able to give youngsters chances when he is in such a big pressures to deliver results?

Because the senior players are not given him the desired result. . . . AVB is exhibiting gross stupidity by doing the same thing repeatedly and expect different result. if a manager, for example, rely on Meireles for creativity, Torres for goals and they aren't delivering, why stick to a clearly failed approach and not try something else (the same logic applies to his tactics by the way) since sticking to that approach will surely lead to a sack anyway.

[LosNumerados]

Droy was my hero, on 20 February 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

One particulary "pretend fact" that get my goat up is the one that says that good young players fail only because the manager doesn't play them. It's an incredibly self-serving

It's not a fact at all. What I am getting at & what I believe is that there is a reluctance to trust in younger players that grow into adults at the club. For me it's evident at a lot of clubs the jump from reserve level to actually competing for a 1st team place is difficult for younger players.

I think a lot of reasons contribute to it, but, for instance there are players like Hazard & Lucas Moura who are about 20 & if they were brought in, people would expect them to be competitive members of the squad. They have proved it & they have hype etc. I just ask myself, if Hazard was at Chelsea since 16 & Kakuta was at Lille. Could it be the same situation, just twist turned around with everybody begging we buy Kakuta & put him in the 1st team whilst we want Hazard to go somewhere on loan & prove himself 1st.

If we go back to Sturridge under Ancelotti for instance he had more of a role that was "I am here as a back-up player, for when the circumstances are very e(I.e there is less risk or he was used to try & rescue a game from the bench) Even during the African Nations Cup under Ancelotti, we were first playing a diamond, with 2 strikers, but we switched to a 4-3-3 formation only playing Anelka, because Drogba had gone.

In that same season most of the times that Sturridge started for us he scored, in the FA Cup he was trusted into start & he repaid that faith with goals, but was dropped when it came to the semi-finals. It's that type of thing that gets me.

Some of these players the lack of trust in them seems like they would only be used in desperate measures. I've never been a huge, huge fan of Davide Santon, but Mourinho put him in there for Inter & the world didn't collapse. Even in a big game where he had to face up against Cristiano.

Bertrand has been loaned, loaned & loaned again to gain experience, but, it all isn't enough to play in his position when the chance arises. Can he really view himself as a competitive member of the squad?

Is Ashley Cole really competing for his position? Competition does help, naturally when you're under pressure to keep your position it can make you play better, but, you do get the feeling that

When these players come in before they establish themselves elsewhere, there is a lack of trust. Sturridge has had to go on loan to establish himself. Which for me is a problem.
I feel managers should be able to determine who to place faith in. It's not about any youth player, it's the ones who show they are deserving. I don't like that players have to go elsewhere to showcase what they can do before they'll be given a chance.

As I say it's not that every young player should be starting, but, it's more, we are struggling in a particular area, we have a player with that skillset, who can do it, but, we ignore giving them the precedence & buy a whole new ready developed player because though we have quality, they haven't proved themselves yet.

My argument is that if we aren't going to give players the opportunity to prove themselves here, we may as well take away focus from the academy & buy them off the peg when they're in their 20's

[Droy was my hero]

LosNumerados, on 20 February 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

It's not a fact at all. ......

So we agree a lot, but are just coming at it from different angles.

Certainly there are times when managers get it wrong - and it is certainly a fair opinion to express when one thinks a particularly young player would have done well if given a chance. One player I did agree with you on was Sturridge a year or two ago. I'd have said the same for Huth and Carlton Cole about 6 years ago, but would never have played Diarra as much as JM did.

LosNumerados, on 20 February 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

What I am getting at & what I believe is that there is a reluctance to trust in younger players that grow into adults at the club. For me it's evident at a lot of clubs the jump from reserve level to actually competing for a 1st team place is difficult for younger players.


I think a lot of reasons contribute to it, .....

There are a lot of factors that make it easier or harder to play kids at big teams. We actually know most of them, but prefer to ignore them to make our points.

• There are the preferences of the manager
  
• and more the manager's confidence that his job is safe,
  
• and the probability (or not) that he will still be there by the time the player adds to the squad
  
• There is the ability of the best 2 or 3 kids (a hurdle test of quality)
  
• But not the number of kids available (not a quantity test)
  
• There is the importance of coming games and the strength of the oppo
  
• so the PL is much tougher to introduce kids that La Liga or Serie A
  
• and a team 5 points clear at the top finds it easier than the team in 2nd while the team safe in 4th place finds it easiest of all (Arsenal!)
  
• And a team needing a confidence boost can find room for kids least of all
  
• And there is the squad: A big squad is much easier to introduce kids into
  
• Players get used to rotation and egos are less fragile when a kid starts ahead of a grown up
  
• Performances are based on using a choice from 20 odd fresh motivated players rather than11 mega stars - so the step up in ability is smaller
  
• Everytime a manager starts a kid, one of his sub places is set aside in case he needs to take the kid off after 45 mins - so you need a fit 11 and a fit bench to make room for kids. (This is counter-intuitive but to start kids means an extra big squad before you count the kids).

Looked at this way, the personal preferences of the manager become pretty unimportant and other factors (especially squad size) make it clear why Man U, Arsenal and La Liga/Serie A big clubs find it so much easier.

LosNumerados, on 20 February 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

My argument is that if we aren't going to give players the opportunity to prove themselves here, we may as well take away focus from the academy & buy them off the peg when they're in their 20's

I totally agree with you. That is exactly what we should do (maybe that wasn't quite your conclusion). But Chelsea like the yachts was a vanity purchase, and the Academy is a vanity purchase too. It's RA's money and I'm not about to tell him where to get off.

[jones]

Anyone seen Kakuta play in Dijon? 3 ligue 1 games with 2 goals and 1 assist isn't bad. Also scored 1 goal in to cup apps. I kind of thought he was finito, but maybe we have a new Sturridge here? (Not saying Dijon=Bolton, but maybe he has a future after all.)

[ish]

we shall see about kakuta, my hopes are raised once again but playing for dijon he is very incosistent when playing. for the game where he got a goal and assist he was in the periphery in the first half and scored the goal with more instinct one on one stuff, second half he was better but at the moment kakuta is too much a luxury player, doesnt impose himself on games enough, doesnt always get open for the pass and try to find space, he has the technical ability in spades but needs to work on his positional and tactical play, either that or he needs to become a hardworking player to cover up for lack of positional accumen.

[bluepuma]

jones, on 21 February 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

Anyone seen Kakuta play in Dijon? 3 ligue 1 games with 2 goals and 1 assist isn't bad. Also scored 1 goal in to cup apps. I kind of thought he was finito, but maybe we have a new Sturridge here? (Not saying Dijon=Bolton, but maybe he has a future after all.)

If you go back to page 95 of this thread there's some discussion of his progress, and links to some highlights.

[LosNumerados]

ish, on 21 February 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

we shall see about kakuta, my hopes are raised once again but playing for dijon he is very incosistent when playing. for the game where he got a goal and assist he was in the periphery in the first half and scored the goal with more instinct one on one stuff, second half he was better but at the moment kakuta is too much a luxury player, doesnt impose himself on games enough, doesnt always get open for the pass and try to find space, he has the technical ability in spades but needs to work on his positional and tactical play, either that or he needs to become a hardworking player to cover up for lack of positional accumen.

You know what? I have similar criticisms of Hazard.

I hate when people point out negatives like it's all that matters, it's all good pointing out areas of improvement, but, every player can improve.
Kakuta is some luxury player for Dijon when he is scoring goals & setting people up. Do we ever consider a Ruud vNistelrooy a luxury player or a Hernandez a luxury player.
Creative players are going to be more risky, Kakuta brings more positives than negatives & I hope that Kakuta understands that with this (looking like it could be his 1st prolonged run in a 1st team) opportunity is a chance to silence the theorists.

[ish]

rvn and hernandez work the space much better the kakuta does, hazard comes deeper and starts attacks more often. kakuta is more like nani, great technically but positionally all over the shop with too much a heads down attitude, I think kakuta could be a more central version of nani in the long run though if he can work his positioning better.

a good example of a player that works to find space and due to it seems to become a focal point so often is ozil. amazing at maintaining distance between lines and playing in the lanes, sure mark him 1 on 1 and he is mostly effective after a turnover but he is nearly always free for that first initial pass because he always works to find space. if kakuta had that he would be playing for chelsea right now.

comparing him to hazard is probably not too far off, same issues but hazard has more time with his squad so he has a better idea of what to do and also his speed is greater then kakuta's as well as consistency in the deeper areas, hazard as well as nani now play more 1-2type football to break quickly then just plain waiting on the shoulder of the man or running at their markers with space.

[zenyatta20]

ish, on 22 February 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

rvn and hernandez work the space much better the kakuta does, hazard comes deeper and starts attacks more often. kakuta is more like nani, great technically but positionally all over the shop with too much a heads down attitude, I think kakuta could be a more central version of nani in the long run though if he can work his positioning better.

a good example of a player that works to find space and due to it seems to become a focal point so often is ozil. amazing at maintaining distance between lines and playing in the lanes, sure mark him 1 on 1 and he is mostly effective after a turnover but he is nearly always free for that first initial pass because he always works to find space. if kakuta had that he would be playing for chelsea right now.

comparing him to hazard is probably not too far off, same issues but hazard has more time with his squad so he has a better idea of what to do and also his speed is greater then kakuta's as well as consistency in the deeper areas, hazard as well as nani now play more 1-2type football to break quickly then just plain waiting on the shoulder of the man or running at their markers with space.

Yep let's hold kakuta to the same standards as some of the best players in his position. makes a lot of sense and while we are at it. let's also hold Josh to the same standards as Iniesta, xavi, Banega and Bastian.

[ish]

you need to, if you are looking for squad members thats fine, however if you think they going to be amazing thats the level they need to aim at, the fact that I can even consider them with the potential to hit those heights should be seen as a positive to them.

kakuta has plenty of errors in his game, as he is I wouldnt want him at chelsea, however with work, intelligence and good coaching he can fix alot of those errors and become a player that chelsea could actually use, instead of umming and aahhing over his ability and then selling him to hsv for 1 million

[zoric]

vs Lazio
Courtois got himself his 16th clean sheet in his 29th appearence (all competitions) when Atlético beat Lazio relatively comfortably with 1-0. He didn't really have a whole lot to do during the game and especially when Atlético still cared about the game. Lazio were horrible and they're currently experiencing a crisis: their coach (Edy Reja) for an example quit his job just before the trip to Madrid and got his resignationrejected). Courtois did almost make a huge misstake when he slipped while anticipating a long ball, managed to get up quickly and recovered though. That was their best chance in the first half and it says everything about how they played. He did have to make a save in the 55th minute when Diakité managed to get up and head the ball towards him, however, without any sort of power behind it. Lazio's best chance came when Matuzalem shot from approximately 22-23 meters range after the ball was headed out from a freekick on to the left hand side, Courtois made a good save and showed his reach on the same time as well. Rozzi had Lazio's last proper chance when he got the ball on the right side, went into the penalty area and shot from a hard angle, low shot which was again, saved by Courtois. Apart from that; nothing. He didn't have problems with any aspect of the game, though he did show a bit of hestitation when going for the aerial ball at maybe 2-3 ocassions. Nothing major. Lazio were just horrendous.

[Bridge Soldier]

I'm watching Barca/Atlético. Once again Courtois is looking very solid and far more experienced than he is. Couldn't have done anything about the goal. Really beginning to think he could be taking over from Cech sooner than we first thought.