3493 replies to this topic

[Bridgejunky]

Teddy Bruckshut, on 20 February 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

You're wasting your time on the forum you need to become a scout or a director of football...

I can't believe you actually think a player's talent level is fixed by the time they're 18. That has got to be the most ludicrous thing I've ever read here! Ramires is a perfect example of a player who's first touch was woeful when he got here and has improved in less than a year, is it elite level? no but no one can argue it hasn't improved. Its more about what you do in training than it is about what you have at a young age.

Every footballer has ups and downs and some of the strengths they have can compensate for the weaknesses. In Lukaku's case he was purchased because he possesses attributes similar to Drogba(powerful, fast, target man, eye for goal) his touch may not be great but neither was Drogba's and he managed to use his other qualities to become a world class striker. By saying he will never be elite after seeing him in an extremely limited role in a transition year at 18 is shortsighted and shows a lack of patience. Are you saying that Drogba at one time wasn't a top 5 striker in the world? possibly no.1? Lukaku admittedly has a long way to go before he can be considered anything close to Drogba in his prime but to dismiss him and say he will never be elite is just silly.

Thanks Teddy.

I've been posting here for eight years and, every once in a while, I let this opinion of mine come to the surface. Whenever I do, it is shouted down, often in almost exactly the same same terms you've used. I recognise therefore that I will not convince you or anyone else about this yet I do believe, and believe passionately, that I'm right.

The only other person I've ever heard express the same point of view is Arsene Wenger. Depending on your view of the Arsenal boss you can decide if this helps my case or hinders it! (When I have a moment, I'll see if I can find a reference to Wenger's opinion and, if so I'll link it. I hope though that, in the meantime, you will take my word for it that he said this.)

My opinion on Lukaku is that, just like The Drog, he may overcome his limitations and make a strong contribution but his basic skills, like his touch for example, will never improve. There will be days when it is better and days when it's worse but his basic talent, or lack of it in this regard, means that over his career, Romelu's touch will, on average, be poor. That is my view anyway. I'm tempted to say that time will tell but I suspect that you and I may not agree about this even in hindsight.

For example, there are occasions when Didier's first touch is sublime, it just works for him, but on average, it is just as poor as it was when he was 18 and always will be. You on the other hand will see it differently and I accept that we can't reconcile that difference in opinion.

[Teddy Bruckshut]

Bridgejunky, on 20 February 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Thanks Teddy.

I've been posting here for eight years and, every once in a while, I let this opinion of mine come to the surface. Whenever I do, it is shouted down, often in almost exactly the same same terms you've used. I recognise therefore that I will not convince you or anyone else about this yet I do believe, and believe passionately, that I'm right.

The only other person I've ever heard express the same point of view is Arsene Wenger. Depending on your view of the Arsenal boss you can decide if this helps my case or hinders it! (When I have a moment, I'll see if I can find a reference to Wenger's opinion and, if so I'll link it. I hope though that, in the meantime, you will take my word for it that he said this.)

My opinion on Lukaku is that, just like The Drog, he may overcome his limitations and make a strong contribution but his basic skills, like his touch for example, will never improve. There will be days when it is better and days when it's worse but his basic talent, or lack of it in this regard, means that over his career, Romelu's touch will, on average, be poor. That is my view anyway. I'm tempted to say that time will tell but I suspect that you and I may not agree about this even in hindsight.

For example, there are occasions when Didier's first touch is sublime, it just works for him, but on average, it is just as poor as it was when he was 18 and always will be. You on the other hand will see it differently and I accept that we can't reconcile that difference in opinion.

Okay even if I am to accept that an 18 yr old adjusting to the pace and physicality of the Premiership will not ever improve upon his technique, because I do believe Wenger has a decent eye for that sort of thing(the article would be an interesting read) am I also to believe that unless a striker possesses elite level first touch that he will never be elite?

As I've said before I doubt we purchased Lukaku because he had a sublime first touch and amazing close control, he was purchased because he has similar characteristics to a Chelsea legend and a guy who in his prime was elite in every way; we have proven we know how to effectively play football with a target man of that ilk.

[Droy was my hero]

^Bridgejunky - of course you are 100% right.

There is some wonderfully self-delusional stuff on this site at times. We have had the cut-priced signing of a player that had already walked out of his club who still cost £12m of Ken Bates ready cash (ie old money) who nobody noticed was a player for a couple of years. We had the megastar that was Didier Drogba at Marseille go from zero to hero in the subsequent two years and now we have another £20+m Brazillian who couldn't trap a ball until he got some proper training at Cobham.

Well I have a confession to make - I misjudged SFL when he first arrived and I thought he was "allright" but no Dennis Wise; I was non-committal on Drogba, failing to recognise for 12 months or so just how good he was, and I kept my fingers crossed about Ramires without ever having £23m worth of faith in the player. I got them wrong but it has never occurred to me to blame the players or coaches for my misjudgements.


This is classic:
I'm reminded of all those trees that are to blame for accidents when they jump out in front of unsuspecting cars.

Teddy Bruckshut, on 20 February 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

I can't believe you actually think a player's talent level is fixed by the time they're 18. That has got to be the most ludicrous thing I've ever read here! Ramires is a perfect example of a player who's first touch was woeful when he got here and has improved in less than a year, is it elite level? no but no one can argue it hasn't improved. Its more about what you do in training than it is about what you have at a young age.

[Bridgejunky]

Teddy Bruckshut, on 20 February 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Okay even if I am to accept that an 18 yr old adjusting to the pace and physicality of the Premiership will not ever improve upon his technique, because I do believe Wenger has a decent eye for that sort of thing(the article would be an interesting read) am I also to believe that unless a striker possesses elite level first touch that he will never be elite?

As I've said before I doubt we purchased Lukaku because he had a sublime first touch and amazing close control, he was purchased because he has similar characteristics to a Chelsea legend and a guy who in his prime was elite in every way; we have proven we know how to effectively play football with a target man of that ilk.

Teddy, the Wenger quote was something I heard him say rather than an article. Can't remember if this was a set piece interview or a press conference. The best I've found so far is a reference to his comment on this coaching website. The first sentance of the sixth paragraph on the home page says: -

Arsene Wenger was quoted saying “If a young player doesn’t have good technique by 11 they never will”.

I'll keep looking for something better.

[bluecueball]

So why did he sign Theo Walcott?

I heard that Theo only started playing at age 10 and through anecdotal evidence; a mate of mine played against him - he was 14, Theo was 12 at the time and was the best player on the park but he said only because of his lightning pace. His ball control was poor but he smacked it and chased after it and burned everyone to pieces.

[Bridgejunky]

bluecueball, on 21 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

So why did he sign Theo Walcott?

Ask him, not me.

[Russellcechbaldry]

Torres has got to be at blame for tonights loss, he didn't touch the ball once! I mean surely for £50m you'd expect him to use some sort of mind control on AVB (He gets paid over 100k p/w after all so you would expect he is capable of this) so that he was on the pitch from the start, and then perform some sort of Pagan ritual which suddenly makes the pile of w**k that surrounds him play football and pass to the guy upfront.

I'm also disappointed that he didn't perform disappearing acts on Meireles and Malouda, and clearly a role reversal was needed tonight performing a pre match blessing on David Luiz would have worked a treat.

I think we should sell him in the summer to PSG for £100m and with the money sign Lavezzi, Cavani, Hamsik, Hazard, Neymar, Willian, Lucas, Ganso, Modric, Pastore and Paul Daniels.

[BlueMissimo]

Russellcechbaldry, on 21 February 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Torres has got to be at blame for tonights loss, he didn't touch the ball once! I mean surely for £50m you'd expect him to use some sort of mind control on AVB (He gets paid over 100k p/w after all so you would expect he is capable of this) so that he was on the pitch from the start, and then perform some sort of Pagan ritual which suddenly makes the pile of w**k that surrounds him play football and pass to the guy upfront.

I'm also disappointed that he didn't perform disappearing acts on Meireles and Malouda, and clearly a role reversal was needed tonight performing a pre match blessing on David Luiz would have worked a treat.

I think we should sell him in the summer to PSG for £100m and with the money sign Lavezzi, Cavani, Hamsik, Hazard, Neymar, Willian, Lucas, Ganso, Modric, Pastore and Paul Daniels.

People just don't see that it's not Torres' fault. They want to blame AVB, Torres, Lampard, but they won't see the whole picture. Right after the actually great start of our last season this whole mess has begun. The midfield was very weak compared to previous years, Ballack and Deco gone, Lamps older, Essien injured and probably not the same and the replacements are just not world class as it used to be. This team needs some fresh air but I'm afraid it could be too late for first class football next season...

[LosNumerados]

bluecueball, on 21 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

So why did he sign Theo Walcott?

I heard that Theo only started playing at age 10 and through anecdotal evidence; a mate of mine played against him - he was 14, Theo was 12 at the time and was the best player on the park but he said only because of his lightning pace. His ball control was poor but he smacked it and chased after it and burned everyone to pieces.

Zlatan started playing at 14

[hanuma]

zaffo, on 20 February 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

Drogba: 15 games, 41 shots = 2.73 avg shots per game.
Sturridge: 19 games, 59 shots = 3.10 avg shots per game.
Torres: 20 games, 40 shots = 2.15 avg shots per game.

1 shot per game less than our right winger and half a shot per game less than Drogba - that's a very significant and telling difference. It highlights exactly what we can see. Sturridge and Drogba want the ball and they get the ball, Torres does not want the ball and he hides. The team is a bag of sh1te right now and AVB is to blame, but the relative performances of our strikers shows that Torres is the least effective given the same conditions.

[Ubik]

For me, Romans 2 fantasy signings are directly responsible for a lot of our problems
1st Sheva - he led to Mourinho getting sacked
2nd Torres - after Carlo's difficult moment, we got back to winning ways, playing Anelka in a different formation.
Then we signed Torres and then the fun began trying to find some formation that would work with him.
Now we're onto a second manager and still trying to work him out and he's messed up the balance sheet as well.
Nice one Roman

[Bridgejunky]

hanuma, on 22 February 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

1 shot per game less than our right winger and half a shot per game less than Drogba - that's a very significant and telling difference. It highlights exactly what we can see. Sturridge and Drogba want the ball and they get the ball, Torres does not want the ball and he hides. The team is a bag of sh1te right now and AVB is to blame, but the relative performances of our strikers shows that Torres is the least effective given the same conditions.

Or is it that, more often than we'd like, Studge and The Drog take silly pot shots which waste possession and frustrate the heck out of us but which nevertheless pad their stats?

[mokilove]

Ubik, on 22 February 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

For me, Romans 2 fantasy signings are directly responsible for a lot of our problems
1st Sheva - he led to Mourinho getting sacked
2nd Torres - after Carlo's difficult moment, we got back to winning ways, playing Anelka in a different formation.
Then we signed Torres and then the fun began trying to find some formation that would work with him.
Now we're onto a second manager and still trying to work him out and he's messed up the balance sheet as well.
Nice one Roman

It´s too simple to blame one player for the current problems we have. Torres didn´t play yesterday and we looked absolutely mess on the pitch. We have massive team problems and no problems with only one player, who can´t find the net.

Good read: http://www.ft.com/cm...l#axzz1mxJXylzK

[zaffo]

hanuma, on 22 February 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

1 shot per game less than our right winger and half a shot per game less than Drogba - that's a very significant and telling difference. It highlights exactly what we can see. Sturridge and Drogba want the ball and they get the ball, Torres does not want the ball and he hides. The team is a bag of sh1te right now and AVB is to blame, but the relative performances of our strikers shows that Torres is the least effective given the same conditions.

Bridgejunky, on 22 February 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Or is it that, more often than we'd like, Studge and The Drog take silly pot shots which waste possession and frustrate the heck out of us but which nevertheless pad their stats?

As Bridgejunky touched on.


Sure, you can interpret that way if you like, but it's a slightly skewed method of doing so. Sturridge gets more "chances" because he's out wide and cutting back inside all the time- this usually isolates him and requires to beat only one man. Factor in he's rather selfish and shoots whenever the goals pop up into his limited vision. You can see why he has more chances. Drogba get's more balls lumped into him, but he's also one player who does take a lot of pot shots from distance himself when he should actually keep the ball and use recycle it better.

Regardless, it still highlights that service is a big issue.

[hanuma]

Bridgejunky, on 22 February 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Or is it that, more often than we'd like, Studge and The Drog take silly pot shots which waste possession and frustrate the heck out of us but which nevertheless pad their stats?

Better a shot in anger than yet another timid backwards pass. Still your observation isn't reflected in the stats:

Torres: 64 shots, 22 on target (34.4% shotsOnTarget from OverallShots), 4 goals (18.2% goals-to-shotsOnTarget)
Studge: 80 shots, 34 on target (42.5%), 11 goals (32.4%)
Drogba: 54 shots, 15 on target (27.8%), 6 goals (40%)