2341 replies to this topic

[Ric]

The thing I miss most about Jose is the other team would run on the pitch, then we would win!


When done well, this game looks so simple.
How did we go from the guy who went to war for his team. To one who only fights in the dressing room?

Edited by Ric, 22 February 2012 - 03:55 PM.

[nateevs]

@Sleeping Dave

It's not how much you have spent that is important but how you have spent it. Torres, Lukaku and Benayoun as it seems now have been needless spendings or put in another way wrong spendings. That's £75m of the £180m you talk about.

I am willing to argue that based on the contributions of Mata and Romeu, I trust AVB to have spent £75m on more value.

The solution therefore is not to ban transfers. It's rather to start spending right.

[thevelourfog]

Sleeping Dave, on 22 February 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Not that it matters a great deal but isn’t the whole post you write thereafter your opinions? Of course it is my opinions (apart from the facts), that’s why I state “my thoughts” in the beginning...

Not in the same sense, but I'm not trying to be antagonistic.

I'm not sure it was made very clear that AVB had the final say over signings. In fact, I'd say that he's done his absolute best to make that clear, and particularly with Lukaku. I'm loathe to point out things AVB has said in press conferences, but he's repeatedly referred to Lukaku as a club signing, not his. What you took to be him rubber-stamping those deals, I took to mean that he knew better than to rock the boat (another regular theme in his press conferences). That Meirleles' Porto exit may well not have been anything to do with AVB suggests to me that he's not a manger who is that bothered about taking full control of transfers.

I can see what you mean when you say the manager should be able to conjure performances out of expensive players regardless of whether or not he signed them, but I think you have to bear in mind that Chelsea handing over far too much money for someone isn't much of anything to do with the manager ...

I'd say Romeu has been great value for money- not because he's any good or a 'proven' player, but because he's at least a useable option. How many other multi-million pound youngsters have managed something so simple as being fit for the bench at Chelsea? I think we both agree that he's not (yet?) up to much, but he's already done more of a job than the last 30 or 40 kids we've signed.

I'm not going to disagree that Villas-Boas has been a disappointment. I just wonder if that's because we all got our hopes up far more than we should have.

[James Prescott]

Sleeping Dave, on 22 February 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

So, I thought I’d offer my thoughts on AVB after the latest debacle we had to witness yesterday. He’s been in charge since 22 June and that makes him our manager for 245 days.
<snip>

Okay, will try to tackle this:

Transfers - Lukaku, Romeu and DeBryne were not bought for this season, and not really by him anyway. They are players bought for the long term future of the club, not for this year really. So that's £30 million right there. Cahill, Merelies and Mata were all bought for this year and although Mata has been a success, Cahill has barely arrived and Merelies has been awful. So average in that respect.

Man management: If you think our best attacker is Anelka, you need glasses. He was very poor, good in patches this season - and crucially, he didn't even want to be here anymore, so how you can think that's anything to do with AVB is beyond me. Alex we should not have sold, and should have played more. But he wanted to go in the end, so what can you do?

I think he's shown guts by willing to leave out and stand up to the old guard. JT, Lampard and Drogba have had way too much power for way too long, and need to be told in no uncertain terms they do not run this club and they are not undroppable. I think he's handled it badly to be fair, but the principle is right at least. To be honest, I think a more experienced man would have handled that better.\

Agree on Torres - he dropped him just as he was running into form, which sapped his confidence and began his goal drought, though he has played him more since.

Media handling: I wouldn't be as scathing as you. But he has alienated some players with his comments, and responds too much to media criticism as well, and his comments about the owners backing sound like he's trying to win a battle with senior players. He could do better for sure, but he's not as bad as you are making out.

I think his record at Porto is phenomenal - they are simply not the same since he left, and there he had a team who were all fully behind him and suited to playing his way. Here he has neither. But he is a winner, he is potentially a great manager. I think however he's come to a club like us about a year or two too early. He's also, like Ramos, tried to play a brand of football that simply isn't suited to either our current squad or our league. You can play attacking football without being like Barca - a style which doesn't work in this league. Even Jose has played more attacking football with Madrid, but not lost the solidity and winning mentality. AVB's style would be more suited to a Madrid or Barca, to the Spainish or even Italian league.

He's simply come here without enough experience. I know they paid £13 million for him, but the truth is they will lose far more if we finish outside the top four - which we could with him - than they will lose by sacking him, so they won't be afraid to sack him if it's the right thing.

This club desperately needs stability at managerial level, a manager who will ship out the old guard and move in the new & rebuild this team. They need a manager who will stay here for many years, win major trophies with a younger team and come to symbolise the club - and ensure that it's not players that run the team and the club. But it has to be the right man, and I don't feel quite as confident as I did that AVB is that man. I want him to be, but I feel less and less sure he is.

There is a man who will be available in the summer and who would love to come here, who would be perfect as the long-term option. We all know who that is.

I've said it before - AVB is possibly the right man, simply at the wrong time. I suspect he hasn't got long, and it would not surprise me to see him go any day now - certainly if we go out of the CL and drop any further in the league.

I would love him to turn this round and become the manager we all hoped he would be, but it's difficult to see this happening now.

[Sleeping Dave]

thevelourfog, on 22 February 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

I'm not going to disagree that Villas-Boas has been a disappointment. I just wonder if that's because we all got our hopes up far more than we should have.

I will leave the rest of your post unanswered as it doesn't really matter for what I wanted to get across in the first place. Let's leave it there.

But yes, I agree with this part. I think we all had expected alot more than what he has delivered. I did not anticipate that he would shun our old guard to the point where it is clear he has lost half the dressing room. I did not expec thim to continuously select players clearly not up to the standards of what we shoul dbe looking at. That Bosingwa and Meireles are starting so many games is just crazy. They are squad players at best at this level.

I had expected it to be a transitional season. Really I had. At no stage did I think we'd win the league, or that we'd get top two easily. But I had not anticipated us running a very real risk of losing out on a top four position. That is simply not good enough, no matter what objections you may have about the squad etc. He should be doing a lot better and be able to motivate the players he have today. That is clearly not the case.

I'm really worried.

[Chelsea-Till-I-Die]

thevelourfog, on 22 February 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

He's repeatedly referred to Lukaku as a club signing, not his.

Must've been great for his morale... and De Bruyne's for that matter.

Whether AVB views it this way or not, man-management gaffes such as these - and make no mistake that's exactly what they are - are so completely unnecessary it's really quite depressing actually.

Mistakes made by a novice manager on the pitch are to be expected and completely acceptable; not learning from them, very much less so... but man-management is something a manager with high-level aspirations HAS to be adept at, and there's no reason for anyone not to be good at it as it's the 'easy' part of management. You don't make public statements indicating a player who signed wasn't your choice. It's absurd.

When AVB arrived I read Porto players saying he had really good man-management skills in his year with them. I'm starting to think it was more the fact that the team was consistently winning which helped breed a positive atmosphere there rather than anything AVB did. It's hard to imagine him having a positive relationship with our squad now, sadly. I know the blame for that also lies at the door of the senior players but I believe AVB has dealt with it extremely poorly so far.

[Sleeping Dave]

James Prescott, on 22 February 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Man management: If you think our best attacker is Anelka, you need glasses. He was very poor, good in patches this season - and crucially, he didn't even want to be here anymore, so how you can think that's anything to do with AVB is beyond me. Alex we should not have sold, and should have played more. But he wanted to go in the end, so what can you do?

Then I need glasses. Only attacker showing a willingness to be where he should be as the main man (I.e. in the freaking box) and the only attacker we had that was able to finish off a chance. I can't believe you are unable to see what he offered. I'd rather have Anelka at RW than Sturridge on current form to be honest. Sure Danny is a long term option but for this season Nic would have been better. That he is better than both Drogba and Torres should be so obvious it's not even worth discussing.

James Prescott, on 22 February 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

I think he's shown guts by willing to leave out and stand up to the old guard. JT, Lampard and Drogba have had way too much power for way too long, and need to be told in no uncertain terms they do not run this club and they are not undroppable. I think he's handled it badly to be fair, but the principle is right at least. To be honest, I think a more experienced man would have handled that better.\

Who says there really is player power at Chelsea? The Sun? You? What you call guts I call stupidity and stubborness. If he really has treated the bigger names in such appalling manner the only thing he has accomplished by such a moronic strategy is to put us outside the top four. Well ****ing done indeed.

James Prescott, on 22 February 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Media handling: I wouldn't be as scathing as you. But he has alienated some players with his comments, and responds too much to media criticism as well, and his comments about the owners backing sound like he's trying to win a battle with senior players. He could do better for sure, but he's not as bad as you are making out.

But why does he "need to win a battle with the senior players"? Why not try and use them to the teams best for this season and then thank them for their service and get rid of them in the summer? What gain is there for him to play the stubborn arrogant brat he comes across as now? Why alienate them to such an extent? What gain is there to be had by such behaviour? The only thing he accomplishes with that is to look like an idiot, achieve no positive effect on the team and to make sure our best players are not interested to play.

It's just moronic. The man needs to have a long look at himself and change his attitude. If he loses his job I will have absolutely no sympathy for him. Not considering how badly he has carried himself through this debacle.

[James Prescott]

Oh come on - if you really think player power isn't way OTT at Chelsea then you're very niave. JT has even been quoted in the past on how he and other senior players have been consulted on decisions concerning managers. How many managerial departures in recent years have had something to do with players - Grant, Scolari and even Jose (he fell out with JT the day before, funnily enough) all left because the players didn't want them. There are some huge egos there who think they know more about football than a manager who won four trophies last year and think they have the right to run the club - someone is going to have to take a stand against them. Usually players have to prove themselves to new managers - at our club it's the complete opposite, and that is simply out of order.

AVB may well have handled it badly I accept - he should have got them onside, and then explained to them that they weren't going to playing such
prominent roles in terms of playing every game, but that their experience is still useful and they are still important to the club and part of his plans. I don't blame him for not playing Lampard if he feels like he's being undermined by him.

People saying Lampard should play instead of Merelies - no it's Essien who should, because yesterday Merelies played as DM, and Lampard isn't a DM, so Essien should have played instead of him. If Lampard was going to play instead of anyone, it was Malouda. However even then Malouda was playing wide left of the front three, with Mata deeper and more central, allowed to influence the game. If you're going to put Mata central and deeper, then Malouda has to play wide left if you're playing 4-3-3. Personally, I'd play a diamond with Mata at the tip, with Lampard on left and Ramires right of the diamond, and Essien DM - but AVB, in one of his mistakes IMO, has not tried this. It would solidify our midfield and allow Mata to influence the game more creatively, and give us more attacking wise.

In terms of Anelka, well he did nothing this year apart from a great assist for Torres at OT, and was getting past his best. He wanted to leave - make no mistake, he wasn't forced out, he wanted to go, so you can't blame AVB for that. He was another player we needed to move on, and how people can criticise Sturridge, who is our joint top scorer this season and has played well overall - though his crossing needs work, and he still has improvement to make (understandable, given his age) is just beyond me completely. We went for the young player in that position instead of a player getting past his best who didn't want to be here, and I think it's worked out fine, because Sturridge is having a promising season.

No doubt, AVB's man-management has been poor - he could have handled the big egos better. But at the same time, the principle of taking a stand and saying he's in charge of the club, not the senior players, and he makes the decisions not them, is to be admired. He just did it in the wrong way, and possibly was too arrogant and dismissive of them, which has created these divisions in the squad - and for that he should be criticised.

The thing he had at Porto was a younger team, who were all behind him and supported his way of playing. Everyone was united behind him and how he wanted to play - and these were younger players, not ones the same age as AVB and who had won it all, and didn't have egos, so were willing to listen to him. Yes, it was an easier league, but you can't simply say that and discredit what he did there - four trophies and only losing three games all season in 90 mins is to be admired. He simply should, as Jose did, have stayed at least one more season there to gain more experience before coming to a major league. Right man, wrong time - this argument makes so much sense its unreal.

The fact is that this makes him probably the wrong man now sadly - I desperately want him to succeed, but his inexperience has cost him here. He's handled the man-management badly, picked out of form players over experienced quality, and the team are low on confidence, not orgnaised and in poor form. I cannot see him surviving - the club would rather pay him off I think than lose CL money, which would ultimately be a lot more, and lose money on sponsorship for the stadium, which of course would also be less if we weren't a CL team.

[steve morgan]

But why does he "need to win a battle with the senior players"? Why not try and use them to the teams best for this season and then thank them for their service and get rid of them in the summer? What gain is there for him to play the stubborn arrogant brat he comes across as now? Why alienate them to such an extent? What gain is there to be had by such behaviour? The only thing he accomplishes with that is to look like an idiot, achieve no positive effect on the team and to make sure our best players are not interested to play.
Spot on there Dave

[genjuro]

Good posts Sleeping Dave.....I meant that. I lost my faith in avb long ago and I actually was one of those who really had high hopes of him and really thought he would be amazing. I'm totally against him now and the more I see us play, the more he opens his mouth the more convinced I am he is not good for us. As you mentioned there is so much wrong with us atm, absolutely nothing is working and not one player is putting a shift in.....how come? If anyone thinks we will reach top 4 under avb then dream on.....and we will not go further in CL either, there's nothing to suggest we will.

[SnowFlurryBlue]

steve morgan, on 22 February 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

But why does he "need to win a battle with the senior players"? Why not try and use them to the teams best for this season and then thank them for their service and get rid of them in the summer? What gain is there for him to play the stubborn arrogant brat he comes across as now? Why alienate them to such an extent? What gain is there to be had by such behaviour? The only thing he accomplishes with that is to look like an idiot, achieve no positive effect on the team and to make sure our best players are not interested to play.
Spot on there Dave

Eh, I am a bit curious the extent is that he has "alienated" them...is it as much as some media reports say or something less?

Maybe it doesn't matter though as results do speak for themselves

[Mighty Di Matteo]

@James Prescott: Apart from many really good points you made that I agree with I would like to ask you why you are so sure that a short term option till the end of the season would secure 4th place. You are saying that the club would rather pay Andre off than lose CL money by failing to reach 4th place. I get your point but in case you didn't know we have a hell of a premier league ride in front of us. We still have to travel to ManCity, Arsenal, Liverpool, Villa and Fulham. 5 extremely tough away fixtures and we still have to face Tottenham and Newcastle at home. I am usually an optimist and someone who doesn't give up that easy when it comes to life or supporting the favorite team but sorry, we won't make 4th place either way no matter who the manager will be the next 3 months. We need a miracle and a sudden dramatic change in our performances from every single player and I just don't see that happening. Don't forget that Hiddink managed that change with a squad 3 years younger than our current in terms of core players. That's a huge difference. I don't want to destroy any hopes but realistically I just cannot see us getting 4th at the end no matter who the manager is.

[Blue_In_Every_Way]

I've not lost my faith in AVB as a manager. He's young, he's clearly made some gigantic mistakes. Management isn't for everyone, and you wont find many 33/34 year old men in management positions like AVB. There always was a very real possibility that he'd flop and make no mistake about it, for whatever reason, he has flopped thus far.

His assessment of the squad was wide of the mark, his man-management was abysmal, handling of the media has left him with egg on his face, his tactical analysis in key games has been far from astute.. really, the only reason to keep this guy is for the same reason we hired him - ie, because he can become something great if he learns a thing or 2. We fire him now and we look like idiots and we're back to square one.

[Rutland Blue.]

But why does he "need to win a battle with the senior players"? Why not try and use them to the teams best for this season and then thank them for their service and get rid of them in the summer? What gain is there for him to play the stubborn arrogant brat he comes across as now? Why alienate them to such an extent? What gain is there to be had by such behaviour? The only thing he accomplishes with that is to look like an idiot, achieve no positive effect on the team and to make sure our best players are not interested to play.

It's just moronic. The man needs to have a long look at himself and change his attitude. If he loses his job I will have absolutely no sympathy for him. Not considering how badly he has carried himself through this debacle.


100% Agree.

It is the petty, small minded treatment of great players that will be his downfall. Evolution not revolution would have been the sensible course. Use the old guard to help usher in a new dawn. Its just basic man management!
His chosen path highlights inherrent weakness, not strength and at a top level football club is instantly sniffed out. Taxi for AVB.

[southcoastal]

Sleeping Dave, on 22 February 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

I had expected it to be a transitional season. Really I had. At no stage did I think we'd win the league, or that we'd get top two easily. But I had not anticipated us running a very real risk of losing out on a top four position. That is simply not good enough, no matter what objections you may have about the squad etc. He should be doing a lot better and be able to motivate the players he have today. That is clearly not the case.

So reading the above the actual problem is with your own expectations, You ignored where we actually are, why we are here and what needs to be done, as a club in order to progress and unilaterally decided what the club should be doing and when . . . No wonder toys are being thrown out the pram,

Blaming AVB for everything real and imagined most unedifying

Put a bit more thought into the word Transition you imagined a SMOOTH transition and was never likely to be given the circumstances . . .