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30 minutes ago, Blue Rod said:

Honestly I have no idea on which planet these people live. Christensen is 10 times the defender Gary Cahill is at the moment, and probably was last 2 seasons

I know it is only Blue Rod, but the sad thing is he thinks this is serious. 

38 minutes ago, Blue Rod said:

And any on-loan Chelsea midfielder who can't better Mikel at the moment should hang his boots. 

???  And this about the guy who was first choice late last season.

 

But worst of all is just this idea that we need more turnover of players this season because getting rid of 10 players last season wasn't enough.

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Blue Rod   
1 hour ago, Droy was my hero said:

I know it is only Blue Rod, but the sad thing is he thinks this is serious. 

???  And this about the guy who was first choice late last season.

 

But worst of all is just this idea that we need more turnover of players this season because getting rid of 10 players last season wasn't enough.

You could think of many reasons why we are not going to be challenging for the PL this season. One very important one is that we have allowed players to stay on when it is so obvious that they are no longer good enough. This invariably prevents younger players from breaking in. So we send them on loan instead. And you wonder why no young player, not even our own, thinks we are a good place to be. They see the likes of Mikel jogging along without ever being close to neither the ball nor his opponent, and they wonder what the hell is going on.

On what planet was Oscar ever better than KDB for example? I am not one to get into some sentimental claptrap. Mikel, John Terry, Cahill. Ivanovic, Matic, Oscar, are players who have shown consistently over the past two seasons that either their time is up, or they were a mistake in the first place. So the idea that we should keep players till they drop dead is the kind of bulls22t you get from idiots.

People talk about Chelsea recycling managers. The fact that we won everything possible meant that we were doing the right thing. That recycling of managers took place while we more or less had a core of good players. When that changed we should have recycled players in the same way that we recycled managers. But we didn't. So we have this mess where Gary Cahill can't create enough goals for opponents, and when we need a player to help Kante Mikel can't even make the bench.

Edited by Blue Rod

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Sciatika   

I don't tend to take the view that our players are crap and should be replaced. To me, they are still very good footballers but have to be used properly - in the right context.

Of the people you mention, JT is still probably the best CB in the league for positioning and ability to read the game as well as leadership qualities. He does not have much pace, but he never really did. Comparing KDB and Oscar is like comparing chalk and cheese.They are very different players. KDB is more of an offensive player and works best in a team where he has no responsibility whatsoever - he just has to make and score goals. I am not knocking it, its a handy knack to have. But Oscar, on the other hand, is a way better in transition, at winning the ball further up the pitch. I think that's essential to our playing style moving forward. Oscar also has a better pass completion rate. You moan about MIkel, but he is probably still our best pure DM. That's a role that Kante can cover but its not what he is best at. You could question whether we need that anymore. Personally, I thisnk that Bran and Matic should now be used as squad players but I still think they both have something to offer in specific games.

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Blue Rod   
4 hours ago, Sciatika said:

I don't tend to take the view that our players are crap and should be replaced. To me, they are still very good footballers but have to be used properly - in the right context.

Of the people you mention, JT is still probably the best CB in the league for positioning and ability to read the game as well as leadership qualities. He does not have much pace, but he never really did. Comparing KDB and Oscar is like comparing chalk and cheese.They are very different players. KDB is more of an offensive player and works best in a team where he has no responsibility whatsoever - he just has to make and score goals. I am not knocking it, its a handy knack to have. But Oscar, on the other hand, is a way better in transition, at winning the ball further up the pitch. I think that's essential to our playing style moving forward. Oscar also has a better pass completion rate. You moan about MIkel, but he is probably still our best pure DM. That's a role that Kante can cover but its not what he is best at. You could question whether we need that anymore. Personally, I thisnk that Bran and Matic should now be used as squad players but I still think they both have something to offer in specific games.

I used to participate in AC Milan forum in their hey days. There was that transitional period when the team that was the best in Europe had started to tire. Fans and managers found something good about each overage player that they wanted to keep. Now see where they are.

Any team that fails to renovate, and renovate in time, faces ruins. You can go around Europe from Germany to Italy to Spain, to find evidence of that problem in their past or present. It is that period when sentimentality gets the better of reason. Even the mighty Barcelona are right now having to face up to it, and they don't even have the likes of Mikel in their squad.

With all due respect, the idea that you can challenge for trophies with Mikel, Oscar and John Terry right now, I find it ludicrous. And talk about Oscar, how can comparing him to KDB be chalk and cheese. Oscar is not good enough for a Kante or Matic position. He is meant to support the striker, the role that KDB was bought to do. But he is also hopeless in that role. He does not defend with any degree of consistency either. I have seen younger players in his position simply take the game by the scruff of the neck. Oscar is nowhere near that level.

Edited by Blue Rod

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Blue Rod   
8 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

But worst of all is just this idea that we need more turnover of players this season because getting rid of 10 players last season wasn't enough.

So, not content with what to do with the likes of Mikel, we should also be having sleepless nights about Falcao (who was no longer fit to train when we signed him) and the Salah, Cuadrado, etc of this world. My worry is not that we got rid of these players, but how and why they came to Chelsea in the first place.

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Sciatika   

 

11 hours ago, Blue Rod said:

I used to participate in AC Milan forum in their hey days. There was that transitional period when the team that was the best in Europe had started to tire. Fans and managers found something good about each overage player that they wanted to keep. Now see where they are.

Any team that fails to renovate, and renovate in time, faces ruins. You can go around Europe from Germany to Italy to Spain, to find evidence of that problem in their past or present. It is that period when sentimentality gets the better of reason. Even the mighty Barcelona are right now having to face up to it, and they don't even have the likes of Mikel in their squad.

With all due respect, the idea that you can challenge for trophies with Mikel, Oscar and John Terry right now, I find it ludicrous. And talk about Oscar, how can comparing him to KDB be chalk and cheese. Oscar is not good enough for a Kante or Matic position. He is meant to support the striker, the role that KDB was bought to do. But he is also hopeless in that role. He does not defend with any degree of consistency either. I have seen younger players in his position simply take the game by the scruff of the neck. Oscar is nowhere near that level.

Yes, you need to renew the squad as they become too old or where there are better options that are available. My (limited) impression of Milan was they they had a lot of very old players. We don't. The only old players in your list are Terry and Bran. I still believe that JT is better than anything that is available at the moment for a sensible price. To me, the latter is a decent backup for the squad at RB/CB until the end of season.  I doubt we will renew. I think Cahill will also become increasingly a backup behind Zouma, Luiz and Terry and wont be renewed either in 2019. The rest in your list are all less than 30 - not old. Mikel is there where we want a traditional DM. I would not be surprised to see him only play in the fixtures where we need more cover but he is now a backup player and will probably not be renewed next season either.

We are moving some on. We are just not completely replacing the squad. This is not sentiment, it is practicality. Its very important to maintain the ethos of the club and you achieve that by keeping a strong core of players. As to the ones we keep, there may be better players out there in their positions, but most are untested in our league or not available at a price we want to pay. If we need a CB, I would not buy a Bonucci at the amounts that are rumoured because that exceeds his value. Actually, I would bring back Christensen, instead.

Also, to me, there's no point in moaning about what people did in the past - what players were bought and sold - they did what they believed was best at the time. I think it was thought that players like Salah and Cuadrado would give us more pace on the flanks. It didn't work out - it sometimes doesn't. I'll admit I didn't get Falco or Pato. I think we were just trying to bolster our striking lineup - not sure.

We will just have to disagree on Oscar. I see what he brings to the game and, apparently, you don't.

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Blue Rod   
6 hours ago, Sciatika said:

 

Yes, you need to renew the squad as they become too old or where there are better options that are available. My (limited) impression of Milan was they they had a lot of very old players. We don't. The only old players in your list are Terry and Bran. I still believe that JT is better than anything that is available at the moment for a sensible price. To me, the latter is a decent backup for the squad at RB/CB until the end of season.  I doubt we will renew. I think Cahill will also become increasingly a backup behind Zouma, Luiz and Terry and wont be renewed either in 2019. The rest in your list are all less than 30 - not old. Mikel is there where we want a traditional DM. I would not be surprised to see him only play in the fixtures where we need more cover but he is now a backup player and will probably not be renewed next season either.

We are moving some on. We are just not completely replacing the squad. This is not sentiment, it is practicality. Its very important to maintain the ethos of the club and you achieve that by keeping a strong core of players. As to the ones we keep, there may be better players out there in their positions, but most are untested in our league or not available at a price we want to pay. If we need a CB, I would not buy a Bonucci at the amounts that are rumoured because that exceeds his value. Actually, I would bring back Christensen, instead.

Also, to me, there's no point in moaning about what people did in the past - what players were bought and sold - they did what they believed was best at the time. I think it was thought that players like Salah and Cuadrado would give us more pace on the flanks. It didn't work out - it sometimes doesn't. I'll admit I didn't get Falco or Pato. I think we were just trying to bolster our striking lineup - not sure.

We will just have to disagree on Oscar. I see what he brings to the game and, apparently, you don't.

My own idea of squad players is totally different from yours. To me squad players should be young talented players who are able to come in and play the odd match when the main player is having an off day, injured or resting. That young squad player then slowly replaces the older player over time. What we have now is some old tired players backing up other old or average players. Little wonder why no young player breaks in. It's not like these old players are doing anything special or have any potential to get better. So where is this set up is the place for young players?.

You mention Christensen. But you also say JT is still good enough, and Cahill may be here till 2019. So where does Christensen fit into all this, if at all? To me, if you say JT is the main guy, then Christensen should be somewhere in the mix and play a fair amount of games. He is better than Cahill and has the prospect of stepping up. He is my idea of a squad player right now and a first team player next year. If JT is no longer in top form, he can't be our main player. If you ask me honestly, I think he is going to struggle with injury all season. And when he plays he is not going to be able to give it all for fear of another injury. His body is not coping with the amount of power needed for a quick take off and reaction. Good positional play is one thing, but you also need to generate that torque for a quick physical reaction, whether is twisting or straight run. 

It is tried and tested pathway to mediocrity and stagnation, when you start finding excuses for keeping players who have passed their best and should really be moved on. It's like your old jumper. You need someone to tell you it's worn out. Because in your eyes it is still the best jumper you ever had. 

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8 hours ago, Sciatika said:

If we need a CB, I would not buy a Bonucci at the amounts that are rumoured because that exceeds his value. Actually, I would bring back Christensen, instead. 

What price Terry or Maldini in their prime? For me where we are at now, you get that deal done for Bonucci, whatever it takes, only time will tell you if the money was well spent, it's one of those priceless transfers. However good Christensen is, he is not in the same bracket as the other three; born winners with a winning mentality.

Edited by nutmegsw6

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Sciatika   
15 hours ago, Blue Rod said:

You mention Christensen. But you also say JT is still good enough, and Cahill may be here till 2019. So where does Christensen fit into all this, if at all? To me, if you say JT is the main guy, then Christensen should be somewhere in the mix and play a fair amount of games. He is better than Cahill and has the prospect of stepping up. He is my idea of a squad player right now and a first team player next year. If JT is no longer in top form, he can't be our main player. If you ask me honestly, I think he is going to struggle with injury all season. And when he plays he is not going to be able to give it all for fear of another injury. His body is not coping with the amount of power needed for a quick take off and reaction. Good positional play is one thing, but you also need to generate that torque for a quick physical reaction, whether is twisting or straight run. 

Christensen wont be back till next season. At that time, Terry is probably not renewed (or, if so, will be used very sparingly). So we have four CBs (Zouma, Luiz, Cahill and Christensen) for 2-3 places depending on tactics. All will probably have injuries during the course of a season. And they will all be rotated. So they will all get games. The club may decide to replace one of them or not.

To me there is no single "best" team. It depends on all sorts of factors (location, opposition, competition, fitness, form and so on). Generally, some players will be more backup than others but that will be reflected in being picked to start, on the bench or not at all. Christensen may better than Cahill in some respects and not others. BAckups might be young players being given a chance or an older player who has something to offer the circumstances of the match. Zola was a backup for for 2001-2 season. Should we have sold him? No, He had one of his best season in 2002-3 (when he was 37).

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50 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

Christensen wont be back till next season. At that time, Terry is probably not renewed (or, if so, will be used very sparingly). So we have four CBs (Zouma, Luiz, Cahill and Christensen) for 2-3 places depending on tactics. All will probably have injuries during the course of a season. And they will all be rotated. So they will all get games. The club may decide to replace one of them or not.

2 places - or if 3 places you have to add Azp, probably Alonso and potentially if contract is extended, Ivanovic as 6 or 7 members of a 3 man defence.  None of them are really wingbacks.

Plus Bonucci...
Plus quite likely JT - our best CB right now.
And then why have a giant immobile CM who can drop back to joint the CBs if you start with 3 CBs?

And all of this is addressing the wrong problem which is defending outside our box.

 

But I certainly agree with para2 =  the idea of having a squad to pick from rather than having 11 good + 6 weaker players as the whole squad.  

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