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13 minutes ago, SabCFC said:

I have personally concluded that pundits can't tell if a player is good unless it's very, very, very obvious (aka they're scoring goals or making last ditch tackles for defenders or eye-pleasing saves for GKs).

Well their job is simply to find reasons why Liverpool are so great, and why Man U aren't great yet when they have so many great players and a top manager.  Any player based explanation is fine, they don't need good ones.

For me Jorginho looks a lot more athletic this season.  Some of that has been Kante missing games (Kovacic also looks better when Kante isn't there - more balls to be won).  And some of it the 3 man CBs which allows him to commit more often.
 

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Ham   
4 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Well their job is simply to find reasons why Liverpool are so great, and why Man U aren't great yet when they have so many great players and a top manager.  Any player based explanation is fine, they don't need good ones.

For me Jorginho looks a lot more athletic this season.  Some of that has been Kante missing games (Kovacic also looks better when Kante isn't there - more balls to be won).  And some of it the 3 man CBs which allows him to commit more often.
 

I 100% agree that he looks more athletic in the past year. As a result I think he's almost the perfect CM for the PL.

However that's not to say he didn't deserve a lot of criticism for some truly horrific and spineless performances in a Chelsea shirt in the first 18 months or so.  To say otherwise is to rewrite history.  He's great now but he hasn't always been with us. 

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18 minutes ago, Ham said:

I 100% agree that he looks more athletic in the past year. As a result I think he's almost the perfect CM for the PL.

However that's not to say he didn't deserve a lot of criticism for some truly horrific and spineless performances in a Chelsea shirt in the first 18 months or so.  To say otherwise is to rewrite history.  He's great now but he hasn't always been with us. 

Under Sarri?  Really?

I know people got annoyed with him under Lampard.  But that was a confusing time for players and fans
Under Sarri he was good.  As was Kepa.  As were most players actually except the candidates for 8.

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SabCFC   
24 minutes ago, Ham said:

I 100% agree that he looks more athletic in the past year. As a result I think he's almost the perfect CM for the PL.

However that's not to say he didn't deserve a lot of criticism for some truly horrific and spineless performances in a Chelsea shirt in the first 18 months or so.  To say otherwise is to rewrite history.  He's great now but he hasn't always been with us. 

You almost could say the same for a lot of players during the 18 months prior to TT. Rudiger, Azpilicueta are absolute warriors who no one would question their "spine" ... Jorginho was made vice-captain by Lampard recognising his leadership qualities. Almost as if this squad was the victim of bad coaching making it look worse than it is.

It's like hearing those BT & Sky pundits blaming the Utd players for their uncoordinated press, defensive mistakes against Liverpool - I had a lot of flashbacks the past few weeks. Players blamed for tactical problems, for giving up on the manager while also pulling off some come backs.

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Ham   
2 hours ago, SabCFC said:

You almost could say the same for a lot of players during the 18 months prior to TT. Rudiger, Azpilicueta are absolute warriors who no one would question their "spine" ... Jorginho was made vice-captain by Lampard recognising his leadership qualities. Almost as if this squad was the victim of bad coaching making it look worse than it is.

It's like hearing those BT & Sky pundits blaming the Utd players for their uncoordinated press, defensive mistakes against Liverpool - I had a lot of flashbacks the past few weeks. Players blamed for tactical problems, for giving up on the manager while also pulling off some come backs.

I am one of those who was initially very excited when he joined but very disappointed with some very poor performances, not just under SFL but before. I genuinely questioned whether he was suited to the premier league. 

I don't care what anyone says, he has gotten much better in terms of dealing with the physicality of the PL in the past year. He wasn't always that Central Midfielder. 

There is absolutely no correlation between how I feel about Jorginho and any thoughts about Sarri but disappointingly that's what is always brought into any debate on Jorginho (not by you).

Anyway, I'm a big fan now but haven't always been. 

 

 

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No surprise to anyone who has been to Upton Park or the London Stadium.

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Holymoly   

Call me an old fogey that is totally out of touch but can someone explain to me why the names "Kevin" and "Steve" are deemed "deeply offensive" racist slurs in relation to the Yorkshire CCC affair? Does this mean that us calling our captain "Dave" makes all of us racists too?

Edited by Holymoly

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27 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

Call me an old fogey that is totally out of touch but can someone explain to me why the names "Kevin" and "Steve" are deemed "deeply offensive" racist slurs in relation to the Yorkshire CCC affair? Does this mean that us calling our captain "Dave" makes all of us racists too?

Did you watch any of Azeem Rafiq's testimony to the House of Commons committee? If not, maybe you should (it's on iPlayer, YouTube and elsewhere).
All non-white players (including Rafiq) were given the name "Kevin" by Gary Ballance and Alex Hales. When two white men call anyone and everyone not white "Kevin", then yes, it's being racist and discriminatory.

“Kevin was something Gary [Ballance] used to describe anyone of colour in a very derogatory manner. It was an open secret in the England dressing room. Anyone who came across Gary would know that was a phrase he would use to describe people of colour.” - Azeem Rafiq

Another player at another team did the same, only using "Steve" instead of "Kevin"

I'm not keen on Azpilicueta being called 'Dave'. It's not racist, but it is disrespectful. It says "I can't be bothered to learn how to pronounce your name"

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Holymoly   
1 hour ago, Bob Singleton said:

When two white men call anyone and everyone not white "Kevin", then yes, it's being racist and discriminatory.

 

1 hour ago, Bob Singleton said:

I'm not keen on Azpilicueta being called 'Dave'. It's not racist, but it is disrespectful. It says "I can't be bothered to learn how to pronounce your name"

Sorry but I fail to see why society deems one "racist and discriminatory" and the other merely "disrespectful".

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