CFCnet Admin

Khobar's Legacy

Recommended Posts

JaneB   
59 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

On the one hand I'm wary of responding because of the forum rules and the thread we're in. It's a small shame this discussion isn't in, idk, the media thread. On the other hand, I think it's an important conversation and everyone has been respectful so far, so I'll chance it. 

In terms of what it achieves ... Well, I literally already said. It offers a sense of acknowledgement, of being seen to a group of people who consistently describe the feeling of not being seen. That may not in itself manifest into a more tangible change and perhaps therefore isn't meaningful by some people's standards, but I struggle to understand positions like those. Who among us honestly takes or feels nothing when someone else even just notices our pain?

42 per every million African Americans were killed in police shootings between 2013 and 2019, by far the greatest proportion in any ethnic group and 3 times more likely than those identified as white. Over 17% of those were unarmed, again a far greater percentage than those identified as white. More of them were killed by off-duty police officers than any other ethnic group. 98% of those killings had no criminal or disciplinary follow up. Surveys consistently show similar levels of self-reported criminality (for example, drug use) across black and white populations in America, and yet significantly more black people are arrested, tested and charged in relation to these crimes. There are five times as many black Americans in prison than their are white Americans, despite there being more than four times as many white people in America. I don't want to be rude or dismissive, but there is not an argument to be had about the disproportionate application of police and criminal justice force on black people.

Broadly speaking, there are two main explanations. One is that black people are just somehow, by virtue of their blackness, much more likely to behave in a way that means they are more likely to get shot by police or end up in jail. I don't think any of us come even close to thinking that. The second is what, to be frank, all sensible and creditable science and human history tells us; that the inherent similarities between the physiology and cognition of people from different races is overwhelmingly more similar than it is different and as such those huge differences in, for example, killing or incarceration rates is caused by something else. It's that something else that people are mad as hell about. Is the way some people are being mad about it going to be useful? Who knows. Protest, riots and looting actually have far greater historical precedent for provoking political and social change (even if this is not consciously or purposefully the intention of those taking part) than they ever seem to get credit for when situations like what we're seeing in America happen. So few of the basic rights many of us hold dear were from start to finish negotiated pleasantly over a table.

What I don't understand about the statistics in your post is ... What are they meant to establish? That black people are just as bad and naughty as white people, that they do bad things too, sometimes lots of very bad things? I think most people get that. This isn't, or at least should not, be considered or framed as being about black people versus white people. I can't help but be drawn to your line about being "made to feel guilty". I don't feel guilty, and I don't feel like anyone wants me to be. I feel sad. I don't want any group of people to be more likely to die, or be killed, or kill other people, or be in prison, or live in fear. I think what black people want from me is help, not an apology.

I don't know really how to respond to your last point. Is it hypocritical or undermining in some way to care more or devote more energy to one cause than another? Yeah, probably. So what? What is the alternative? Not caring about anything? Are the only options, if we want to be perceived as authentic and having integrity, to either not both with anything or to rage with incandescent political fury about literally everything 24/7?

I've just realised now how long this post is, so will knock it on the head. I've said my bit and am happy to carry on in a PM if needed.

 

15 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

Great post - and if you go PM you'll have to find a way of including half a dozen of us.
One nerdy arithmetic quibble There are five times as many black Americans in prison than their are white Americans, Proportionately.   despite there being more than four times as many white people in America.  Still shocking.
Prison I agree is a real issue.  In UK there are almost twice as many BAME prisoners proportionately as whites.  But the totals are much much smaller.  There are 707 people in US prisons per 100k pop, five times the England/Wales rate of 148.  Half the US prisoners have not sentenced yet.  
At the 2010 census 4490 black adults per 100k black male pop were in prison.  4.49% of male blacks actually in prison (more if you compare adults to just adults).

Prison (drug laws), guns and a complete failure of the past 30 years to care for the bottom half of the population.

 

Yes I think that would be a good idea.

I believe it started on this thread because of Liverpool 'taking a knee'.

Last words from me - and I can't compare to other's knowledge and input on here - but the usual suspects on the streets of London this afternoon ignoring social distancing, shouting political slogans and attacking the Police, just makes me despair that injustices will ever start to be debated and things improved.  Throw in a few virtual signalling z list celebs and police officers 'taking a knee' when they should be doing their job and that's it for me.

Conversely I did find that clip of a black woman and a US police officer embracing very moving.  Very brave of them both but I guess the extremists on both sides won't like it.

Sorry, end of politics on here.  We need what unites us all on here...….football and Chelsea!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ham   
11 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

 

They are just joining in on an internet meme they don't understand.


 

Almost certainly.

4 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Honestly though, what does any of this achieve? No wrongs are undone and no victims of racism are any better off, while it has given a load of people an excuse to help themselves to a new pair of Nike trainers, and destroy businesses (many of which are owned by black people).  

FWIW, the biggest killer of black people in America is........black people. Moreover, per captia far more whites are murdered by blacks than the other way around, yet we are all trying to be made to feel guilty for some reason about US police brutality.  Meanwhile a black, retired police officer was shot and killed yesterday in Las Vegas by a black protestor (looter)......how is any of this helping anybody? 

Interesting stat I saw yesterday, posted by a black man incidentally, that in the US, for every 10k black people arrested, 3 die in custody. For every 10k whites, 4 die in custody. As mentioned in another post, where was the outcry when Tony Timpa was killed by Texan police?

And what has any of this got to do with football over here? as Jane pointed out, who decides what is worthy of this sort of outcry? That poor 7 year old girl got stabbed to death in Bolton a few weeks ago....... or what about all those poor girls who were victim of the Rotherham gromming gangs? There was less response from the football world after the kids were killed in the Manchester bombings at the Ariana Grande concert. these are just 3 examples closer to home....... what about human rights violations in China and Korea? Where do you stop with this stuff........ 

Spot on Paul.

3 hours ago, paulw66 said:

And now these morons are attacking the police in central London. 

There were thousands of protestors today in Hyde Park during a pandemic that is far more dangerous to the BAME community. Darwin award right there. 

I was watching and getting extremely angry doing so.

One particular highlight was when three or four black men attacked a female police officer to the point where she had to hide around the back of a police van to get treatment.

The world was 100% behind the BLM movement last week due to a line in the sand moment playing out in Minnesota. 

There was real solidarity and a real possibility of change.

This is being diluted day by day with sights of white people driving their cars home being swarmed, dragged from their cars and attacked for being white and "protesters" robbing Nike and Adidas. 

White lives DO NOT matter to a large percentage of these "protesters".

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

...I have understood it to be a show of solidarity for oppressed black people, of hostility to that oppression, and a general (imo deserved!) "**** you" to white America... I can't see any logic at all to a suggestion this meaning can't expand and survive a trip over the Atlantic ...

I do agree though that I would love to see more explicit, even more aggressive political support for BLM or, for example, the numerous bail funds.

Identity politics need to stop now. It will only lead us down one path. 

As for the quoted part, dear oh dear. “White America”? This is the problem, not the solution. Tribalism won’t solve a thing. A police officer did an absolutely horrendous act. He should be arrested (has happened), punished (will happen) and then America should pay some attention to actually educate their population a bit more. 

At the moment, sadly, it is the crazy post-modernists and equally crazy alt-rightest who are driving the western narratives. That needs to stop immediately cause it’ll only lead to friction, conflict, violence and ultimately deaths. It’s a poison and not a solution. 

Edited by Sleeping Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

Identity politics need to stop now. It will only lead us down one path. 

Never understood what identity politics are - people complain about them as if that was a sufficient argument for something.
And what path?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JaneB   

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and why this discussion started (as I said above) but we have now veered wildly off topic.

Can we get back to Taking The Pee Out Of Liverpool please?  (Hopefully we will have something to work with soon!)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The FA Board has today confirmed the decision to award the 2019/20 Barclays FA Women’s Super League title to Chelsea FC Women, and that Liverpool FC Women would be relegated to the FA Women’s Championship for the 2020/21 season. :happy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ham   

Just saw that. Double bonus. 

Well done the ladies and Emma Hayes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
bert19   
46 minutes ago, Ham said:

Just saw that. Double bonus. 

Well done the ladies and Emma Hayes. 

Feels like that one is the culmination of several years of excellent work to be fair.  Well deserved! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ham   

You couldn't make this up. The double standards from this horrible club ;

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/relegated-liverpool-hit-out-wsl-22143331?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

My favourite part is;

"The COVID-19 pandemic has presented huge, ongoing challenges around the world, the majority far more important than football" 

They had 6 points from 14 games and the team above had more points and a game in hand. 

Edited by Ham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JaneB   
On 04/06/2020 at 0:09 PM, JaneB said:

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and why this discussion started (as I said above) but we have now veered wildly off topic.

Can we get back to Taking The Pee Out Of Liverpool please?  (Hopefully we will have something to work with soon!)

 

Sooner than I thought.

#prayforliverpool

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now