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Squad Status: 2022/23 Season

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Rob B   
7 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

I'll bite if not for a lack of anything else to do right now.

I mean Livramento literally turned down a new contract in favour of a greater guaranteed playing role at Southampton. Guehi also chose to leave on his own accord and turned down a contract extension because he wanted to be a regular, again not something that was going to happen at the time unless we were going to play him ahead of Rudiger, Thiago Silva or Azpilicueta. He got the exact role he wanted at Crystal Palace, a regular starting role never available here. So both literally couldn't be convinced to stay based and opted to move on, there's literal quotes supporting this (and I posted the other day elsewhere). 

Tomori and Tammy are different again. Tomori was deemed surplus if you will and arguably behind Rudiger, Thiago Silva, Christensen, Azpilicueta and Zouma at the time. While he's gotten some rave reviews, as someone that actually has watched him on more than one or two occasions since arriving at AC Milan he still wouldn't have been a starter here ahead of what we had. His positioning is still a problem and he's far too reliant on his pace bailing him out much like Zouma. He might have of course been a starter in our current environment, but that's also 18 months on from when he left. 

Tammy just didn't seem to be favoured by Tuchel, plain and simple rightly or wrongly. That's part and parcel of football. Serie A is a much better fit for his style imo and if he's got sense he'll remain for a few more years yet. 

Sleeping Dave's squad is utopia & we were never going to keep all of them, and whilst I'm largely in agreement with you on  Tammy (although it really irks),  I do however think we dropped the ball on a few of them...

Livramento turned down a contract because we wanted to send him on loan for a year.   I mean, it's widely reported that Azpi has a gentlemen's agreement to leave this year which didn't just happen a few weeks ago, so with this being the case, why didn't we integrate Tino last season???   Who is looking at this sort of thing through a strategic lense?  And to pre-empt any of the "oh but he wanted to leave so what choice did we have"  responses,  well we could have just kept him!   He was under contract and £5m is a drop in the ocean to us.  We play 60+ games in a season, Azpi is getting on and both him and Reece can play in the back three - there would have been ample games for Livramento last season and I guarantee he would have signed a new deal.   We are literally linked with 30 year olds this summer at a cost of £10m!!!!  Squad mismanagement at its finest....

Re Guehi,  I think it's down to the club to show him a pathway.  Why couldn't he have filled Sarr's role in the squad this season?  He is better than Sarr and therefore arguably would have played even more minutes than he did.  We have a 38 year Thiago Silva,  and at the time a Christensen and Rudiger who both had one year left on their deal.  I don't think it's a difficult sell tbh, and again, no one forced us to sell him he was still under contract. 

I can't believe that anyone can defend the fact that we've let a RB and two CB's from our academy leave in the past two seasons who are now playing regularly in the PL and Serie A, when we are now in the market for a RB and two CB's !!!!  

Let's hope we don't make the same mistake with Levi Colwill....

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1 hour ago, Rob B said:

 

I can't believe that anyone can defend the fact that we've let a RB and two CB's from our academy leave in the past two seasons who are now playing regularly in the PL and Serie A, when we are now in the market for a RB and two CB's !!!!  

Let's hope we don't make the same mistake with Levi Colwill....

Yep , it's certainly short sighted at the very least .

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xCELERYx   
14 minutes ago, Rob B said:

Sleeping Dave's squad is utopia & we were never going to keep all of them, and whilst I'm largely in agreement with you on  Tammy (although it really irks),  I do however think we dropped the ball on a few of them...

Livramento turned down a contract because we wanted to send him on loan for a year.   I mean, it's widely reported that Azpi has a gentlemen's agreement to leave this year which didn't just happen a few weeks ago, so with this being the case, why didn't we integrate Tino last season???   Who is looking at this sort of thing through a strategic lense?  And to pre-empt any of the "oh but he wanted to leave so what choice did we have"  responses,  well we could have just kept him!   He was under contract and £5m is a drop in the ocean to us.  We play 60+ games in a season, Azpi is getting on and both him and Reece can play in the back three - there would have been ample games for Livramento last season and I guarantee he would have signed a new deal.   We are literally linked with 30 year olds this summer at a cost of £10m!!!!  Squad mismanagement at its finest....

Re Guehi,  I think it's down to the club to show him a pathway.  Why couldn't he have filled Sarr's role in the squad this season?  He is better than Sarr and therefore arguably would have played even more minutes than he did.  We have a 38 year Thiago Silva,  and at the time a Christensen and Rudiger who both had one year left on their deal.  I don't think it's a difficult sell tbh, and again, no one forced us to sell him he was still under contract. 

I can't believe that anyone can defend the fact that we've let a RB and two CB's from our academy leave in the past two seasons who are now playing regularly in the PL and Serie A, when we are now in the market for a RB and two CB's !!!!  

Let's hope we don't make the same mistake with Levi Colwill....

You're right, we did want to send Livramento out on loan and that's because we had two options for that position already with RJ and Azp and therefore couldn't offer him the regular spot he desired. Azpilicueta's gentlemen's agreement was something that only recently came to light after we triggered the team option to extend his contact by a year, we certainly couldn't predicted Barcelona coming in for him at the time when we had to make a decision on Livramento. Also true, we could've just kept Livramento against his wishes and made him see out his final year, but that would've created more problem than it was worth. Selling him as we did allowed for a good relationship to remain, along with the ability to re-sign him down the line should he develop as anticipated. Essentially, it could just end up a multi-year loan in which we reimburse Southampton for their work in helping develop him through playing regularly. Livramento returning isn't a lost cause. 

As for Guehi, it wasn't so much about a pathway as it was about wanting regular football in the here and now. That's why he turned down a new deal and left. That's why a role similar to what Sarr or even Chalobah had wasn't enough. He started 36 PL games at Palace this season and played 3300+ league minutes. He was never going to get that sort of playing time here. As for keeping him against his wishes, again it's not something we're in the business of doing. By selling Guehi we've retained an excellent relationship and also the ability to match any future offer that comes in for him. 

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8 hours ago, Rob B said:

Sleeping Dave's squad is utopia & we were never going to keep all of them, and whilst I'm largely in agreement with you on  Tammy (although it really irks),  I do however think we dropped the ball on a few of them...

Livramento turned down a contract because we wanted to send him on loan for a year.   I mean, it's widely reported that Azpi has a gentlemen's agreement to leave this year which didn't just happen a few weeks ago, so with this being the case, why didn't we integrate Tino last season???   Who is looking at this sort of thing through a strategic lense?  And to pre-empt any of the "oh but he wanted to leave so what choice did we have"  responses,  well we could have just kept him!   He was under contract and £5m is a drop in the ocean to us.  We play 60+ games in a season, Azpi is getting on and both him and Reece can play in the back three - there would have been ample games for Livramento last season and I guarantee he would have signed a new deal.   We are literally linked with 30 year olds this summer at a cost of £10m!!!!  Squad mismanagement at its finest....

Re Guehi,  I think it's down to the club to show him a pathway.  Why couldn't he have filled Sarr's role in the squad this season?  He is better than Sarr and therefore arguably would have played even more minutes than he did.  We have a 38 year Thiago Silva,  and at the time a Christensen and Rudiger who both had one year left on their deal.  I don't think it's a difficult sell tbh, and again, no one forced us to sell him he was still under contract. 

I can't believe that anyone can defend the fact that we've let a RB and two CB's from our academy leave in the past two seasons who are now playing regularly in the PL and Serie A, when we are now in the market for a RB and two CB's !!!!  

Let's hope we don't make the same mistake with Levi Colwill....

You say it’s utopia, and then proceed to say we dropped the ball on Livramento, Tomori and Guehi?

Maybe I misunderstand something, but it seems to me that we both agree that the squad I listed would not have been utopia at all if someone at the club looked at squad management through a strategic lense. To me it seems no one at the club has a effing clue what that even is. 

 

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6 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

You're right, we did want to send Livramento out on loan and that's because we had two options for that position already with RJ and Azp and therefore couldn't offer him the regular spot he desired. Azpilicueta's gentlemen's agreement was something that only recently came to light after we triggered the team option to extend his contact by a year, we certainly couldn't predicted Barcelona coming in for him at the time when we had to make a decision on Livramento. Also true, we could've just kept Livramento against his wishes and made him see out his final year, but that would've created more problem than it was worth. Selling him as we did allowed for a good relationship to remain, along with the ability to re-sign him down the line should he develop as anticipated. Essentially, it could just end up a multi-year loan in which we reimburse Southampton for their work in helping develop him through playing regularly. Livramento returning isn't a lost cause. 

As for Guehi, it wasn't so much about a pathway as it was about wanting regular football in the here and now. That's why he turned down a new deal and left. That's why a role similar to what Sarr or even Chalobah had wasn't enough. He started 36 PL games at Palace this season and played 3300+ league minutes. He was never going to get that sort of playing time here. As for keeping him against his wishes, again it's not something we're in the business of doing. By selling Guehi we've retained an excellent relationship and also the ability to match any future offer that comes in for him. 

You talk about these things as you actually know what each of these players were thinking. Let’s stop pretending that you do, it’s all guesswork on your behalf. But either case it’s pretty worrying that we have managed to lose four players who are CB1 at the Italian champions, an attacker who has now showed he knows how to score in both England and Italy and two regular defenders at mid table PL teams. 

Instead we spunk fortunes on bang average dross to cover for the top talents we sell. It’s moronic and a strategy that has to end. 

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xCELERYx   
7 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

You talk about these things as you actually know what each of these players were thinking. Let’s stop pretending that you do, it’s all guesswork on your behalf. But either case it’s pretty worrying that we have managed to lose four players who are CB1 at the Italian champions, an attacker who has now showed he knows how to score in both England and Italy and two regular defenders at mid table PL teams. 

Instead we spunk fortunes on bang average dross to cover for the top talents we sell. It’s moronic and a strategy that has to end. 

I mean I don't know what part of it is guess work when both players (Livramento and Guehi) have literally said and been quoted as to why they left, there's plenty of resources out there with direct quotes including what I posted the other day in what may have been the transfer thread, but if you wish to continue living in denial by all means go for it. The point remains either way, neither player felt the role they wanted was one they could have here, therefore chose to leave out of their own desire to pursue a greater more meaningful first team role elsewhere. 

Tammy clearly wasn't favoured by Tuchel and that was pretty clear at the time given the role he had, while Tomori was a casualty of an excess of CB's at the time and being at the bottom of the pecking order behind better more established players. It's not difficult to read between the lines on those two situations. 

End of the day what's done is done. We've got the ability to buy Livramento back should we desire, we can match any offers that come in for Guehi, and we've got a buyback on Abraham should he improve into an upper tier striker. It could be a lot worse.

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paulw66   
On 24/06/2022 at 9:15 AM, Rob B said:

 

I can't believe that anyone can defend the fact that we've let a RB and two CB's from our academy leave in the past two seasons who are now playing regularly in the PL and Serie A, when we are now in the market for a RB and two CB's !!!!  

Let's hope we don't make the same mistake with Levi Colwill....

Guehi and Livramento refused to sign new contracts. Instead of getting good money for them, I suppose the common sense thing was to let them walk away for nothing?

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paulw66   
On 24/06/2022 at 6:00 PM, Sleeping Dave said:

You talk about these things as you actually know what each of these players were thinking.

It's fairly bloomin' obvious that they wanted to play regularly, so they all took a big step down. 

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2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

It's fairly bloomin' obvious that they wanted to play regularly, so they all took a big step down. 

I disagree. What I do think is obvious though is us failing to present them with a viable road map to integrate them into the senior squad. 

Livramento arguably had James and Azpi ahea dof him last season. The club would have known that Azpi might leave, and that James can play multiple positions. The club should also have realised there was a real chance of us losing both Christensen and Rudiger once their contracts ran out. 

We simply dropped the ball on Guehi and Livramento and downright mistreated Tomori to a criminal level. And don't get me started on Abraham. 

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paulw66   
15 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

I disagree. What I do think is obvious though is us failing to present them with a viable road map to integrate them into the senior squad. 

Livramento arguably had James and Azpi ahea dof him last season. The club would have known that Azpi might leave, and that James can play multiple positions. The club should also have realised there was a real chance of us losing both Christensen and Rudiger once their contracts ran out. 

We simply dropped the ball on Guehi and Livramento and downright mistreated Tomori to a criminal level. And don't get me started on Abraham. 

So they didn't leave because they wanted to play, but we should have shown them that they might play here? That's saying the same thing 

you say there is no road map...........Mount, James, Chalobah* might say otherwise 

In what we did we mistreat Tomori? Should he have been playing over Rudiger, Silva, Azpi or AC? We're not a charity. Selection on merit. 

*what TT showed with Chalobah is if you impress, you'll get a chance,

Edit - I expect Guehi and Livramento in particular are thinking what might have been. There is a massive hole at CB for Guehi, and Livramento would have got a load of games last season as it panned out.

Edited by paulw66

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