JaneB

Chelsea 4 Malmo FF 0

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13 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

We basically have one European competition and that is the CL but its initially smaller.  The EL is effectively a straight fight for 4 teams to win a place in CL knockout stage. That gives those 4 teams a decent shot at winning CL and some serious revenue.

There are 3 big money competitions - PL, CL, and once every 4 years, the WC finals.  Then there are 5 other big money teams:  RM and Barca, mostly funded by extremely favourable TV rights to them, BM, Juve (which dominate middling leagues),  and self funded PSG.  Of course the non-English teams are jealous of the English teams and want somehow to combine.

17 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

We basically have one European competition and that is the CL but its initially smaller.  The EL is effectively a straight fight for 4 teams to win a place in CL knockout stage. That gives those 4 teams a decent shot at winning CL and some serious revenue. Those qualifying teams could be teams like Spurs, Arsenal, Leicester. And there's nothing to stop those 4 teams being drawn against each other in knockout games. If they do an EL team could suddenly find itself in the quarters of the CL, but good for them. In fact a team like Brentford could find itself in the knockout stages of CL. This is good IMO. This is romantic stuff like Wimbledon or Sunderland winning the FA cup. 

Its only an idea but we need blue sky thinking on this

There has been some blue sky thinking on this.  UEFA has proposed a 2024 Swiss system with 36 clubs (instead of 32) and a total of 225 games (125)
The Swiss system is good.  Many many years ago I used to be assistant organiser for an annual chess competition which took just over 100 competitors, and usually found a unique winner over just 6 games over a weekend.  Using the Swiss system.   Should lead to many more high seed vs high seed games, and no more "malmo return" games at all.

Description of Swiss system:  For those interested.  Round 1 is based on grades (chess equivalent of the Euro club ratings), top plays bottom, next to top plays next to bottom etc.  For the next and following rounds all those with the top score so far are pooled and drawn together on the same top half play bottom half basis.  That means the eventual winner will have had to play and beat a lot of strong players to get there.  And unless there are many draws there is usually one (occasionally 2) out right winner.  It is perhaps less good at differentiating between 50th and 51st place - but as a weekend compromise competition on a large scale it works great.  And the algorithm for who plays whom is clear and impossible to "fix".  Home advantage is equivalent to White vs Black advantage.  You can't play the same opponent twice.
 

Quote

How will the Champions League change in 2024?

The number of clubs participating in the Champions League proper is only set to increase by four, from 32 to 36.

But the way in which those extra teams are set to be incorporated is where the most significant changes lie.

The current group stage, in which clubs are divided into eight pools of four, is to be replaced with one single 36-team league.

Except it does not function in the way football leagues normally do. This is the Swiss model.

How does the Swiss model work?

Under a Swiss model-style system, teams play a set number of games rather than facing every other team in the league.

In the case of the proposed 36-team Champions League, clubs are set to play 10 matches against opponents determined by a seeding system.

The seeding system will be designed so that all teams play a roughly even split of games against high, medium and low-ranked sides.

Once all teams have played their 10 games, the top eight clubs in the 36-team league will progress to the competition’s knockout stage.

As a bonus, that top eight would also guarantee their qualification for the following season’s Champions League.

The teams that finished in positions 9-24 would then enter a play-off round to determine the other eights sides progressing to the knockout stage.From the last 16 onwards, the new Champions League format will be the same as the current system.

Why have Uefa and clubs chosen the Swiss model?

Chess, bridge, croquet and Scrabble all use the Swiss model for competitions but it is virtually unknown in football.

The reason it emerged as an attractive solution to the latest power struggle between governing body Uefa and the most powerful clubs is that it suits both parties.

Big clubs want more games, especially between each other, because the media rights should be worth more. 

The Swiss model delivers it: overnight, the number of games in the Champions League is set to rise from 125 to 225.   

This will likely mean the competition being played all season long, rather than breaking between mid-December and mid-February.

It will also mean less repetition of fixtures. The current groups system sees teams play each other twice but the new format will deliver 10 different opponents.

Uefa’s biggest concern, meanwhile, is placating the big clubs enough that they drop the threat of breaking away to form their own European Super League.

The European Super League concept has been mooted since the late 1980s, when Silvio Berlusconi attempted to coax other clubs to go it alone with his AC Milan.  

It rears its head periodically, usually coinciding with sensitive periods in negotiations between Uefa and big clubs over the next Champions League reforms.

The Swiss model is seen as acceptable by the most powerful teams, although it is unlikely to stave off talk of a European Super League for long.

 

For me the tricky bit is the play-offs for those placed 9-24 in the Swiss system.  I guess it keeps all games relevant to the end of the Swiss league. But it also cuts the motivation to win for most teams, knowing that 24 out of 36 teams get to the play off and maybe 6 of the rest are no hopers.
I do like the next year guarantee of CL entry for the top 8.
It'll make matching womens and Academy games pretty much impossible - not an issue for me.

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paulw66   
2 hours ago, Holymoly said:

Blah, blah, blah ESL.

Blah, blah, blah Jorginho.

I come back after a few weeks away and it seems nothing's changed. In one way I suppose it's reassuring.

Nominated for the Ballon D'or, wasn't he?

Some people are happy to admit they were wrong all along...........others stick to their belief he is rubbish and "just passes the ball sideways"

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32 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Nominated for the Ballon D'or, wasn't he?

Some people are happy to admit they were wrong all along...........others stick to their belief he is rubbish and "just passes the ball sideways"

I don't believe that's it at all.

If there was a plane crash landing on the pitch at half time the narrative would be  "it's a shame about the Pilot but did you see the way Jorginho ran for the tunnel, what a guy."

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12 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I don't believe that's it at all.

If there was a plane crash landing on the pitch at half time the narrative would be  "it's a shame about the Pilot but did you see the way Jorginho ran for the tunnel, what a guy."

That certainly sounds like reports of a DM/playmaker recently.  (well until he "tired")

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3 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

 


Description of Swiss system:  For those interested.  Round 1 is based on grades (chess equivalent of the Euro club ratings), top plays bottom, next to top plays next to bottom etc.  For the next and following rounds all those with the top score so far are pooled and drawn together on the same top half play bottom half basis.  That means the eventual winner will have had to play and beat a lot of strong players to get there.  And unless there are many draws there is usually one (occasionally 2) out right winner.  It is perhaps less good at differentiating between 50th and 51st place - but as a weekend compromise competition on a large scale it works great.  And the algorithm for who plays whom is clear and impossible to "fix".  Home advantage is equivalent to White vs Black advantage.  You can't play the same opponent twice.
 

 

For me the tricky bit is the play-offs for those placed 9-24 in the Swiss system.  I guess it keeps all games relevant to the end of the Swiss league. But it also cuts the motivation to win for most teams, knowing that 24 out of 36 teams get to the play off and maybe 6 of the rest are no hopers.
I do like the next year guarantee of CL entry for the top 8.
It'll make matching womens and Academy games pretty much impossible - not an issue for me.

Is this to get Arsenal and Spurs Into the competition?

because I can't see them playing CL football for a while

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32 minutes ago, Cheatedagain said:

Is this to get Arsenal and Spurs Into the competition?

because I can't see them playing CL football for a while

Good question.  
2 months after the piece I quoted above UEFA released this:
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0268-12157d69ce2d-9f011c70f6fa-1000--new-format-for-champions-league-post2024-everything-you-need-to-know/
I haven't looked at it in detail.
 But

Quote

How will the four additional spots be allocated?

Qualification for the Champions League will continue to be open and depend on a club’s final position in the previous season’s domestic league competition. The additional four slots available in 2024/25 will be allocated according to three different criteria:

  • Slot one: One of the additional places will go to the club ranked third in the championship of the association in fifth position in the UEFA national association ranking.
  • Slot two: Another will be awarded to a domestic champion by extending from four to five the number of clubs qualifying via the so-called 'Champions Path'.
  • Slots three and four: Awarded to the two clubs with the highest club coefficients that have not qualified automatically for the Champions League’s league stage, but have qualified either for the Champions League qualification phase or the Europa League/the Europa Conference League (due to start in the 2021/22 season).

Which sounds to me like France 4th place, plus PL 5th place + 2 big teams that failed to qualify.
Which sounds like helping Arsenal or Spurs or Leicester or West Ham - members of the big 10.

But some will auto-qualify as being in top 8.  Instead of the winners having guaranteed places, 8 teams will.  How that affects the other domestic places I don't know.
 

 

 

 

Edited by Droy was my hero

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Holymoly   
20 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Nominated for the Ballon D'or, wasn't he?

Some people are happy to admit they were wrong all along...........others stick to their belief he is rubbish and "just passes the ball sideways"

He's nominated for the Ballon D'Or because his teams won the CL, the Euros and the organisers have no imagination whatsoever. You always find that the "winners" always flood the awards circuit because those are the only games the majority of people ever watch.

I'm not saying he's rubbish, he is good at what he does but let's be honest he is not worthy of this god-like status Droy has accorded him. He offers no goal threat and cannot defend without risking a booking. The problem I have is that Chelsea have major long term talents like Gallacher and Gilmour who we risk losing to the likes of Newcastle if we are not careful, while we bring in players like Saul.

Jorginho and Kante are at an age where we haven't got many years left in them. After Gallacher's success this year he isn't going to stomach another loan next season expecially if Newcastle come calling with a blank chequebook. Similarly Gilmour's loan has been a disaster which anyone could have seen coming, apart from apparently Droy, being sent to a club content with treading water until they get relegated again. Again I can see him walking away to a club that recognises his talent if he has to watch the club bring in donkeys like Saul to take his position in the squad. I can see a situation where we lose both these young players maybe a year before we need them to replace the current veterans. I would prefer to see us play them now (or at least next season) as I can see them offering more creativity than what we are seeing presently. Barkley and Saul out, Gallacher and Gilmour in. Both would end up getting game time.

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paulw66   
1 hour ago, Holymoly said:

He's nominated for the Ballon D'Or because his teams won the CL, the Euros and the organisers have no imagination whatsoever. You always find that the "winners" always flood the awards circuit because those are the only games the majority of people ever watch.

 

There is so much to pick at here, but I'll just stick to a couple of key points:

- Yes, his teams won the CL and Euros. Thanks in part to him being in them. He was a key part in both teams' victories in the biggest club tournament in football, and the second biggest tournament in International football

- The organisers do not choose the Balon D'or nominees. They are nominated by football journalists, international coaches, and international captains. To get nominated is not a random Twitter popularity poll, but a recognition from the wider footballing community to your contribution. 

The winners of the Balon D'Or generally have played for teams that have won something, yes. There is a reason for that. The best players play for the best teams, and the best teams win the biggest trophies.

1 hour ago, Holymoly said:

 

Jorginho and Kante are at an age where we haven't got many years left in them. After Gallacher's success this year he isn't going to stomach another loan next season expecially if Newcastle come calling with a blank chequebook. Similarly Gilmour's loan has been a disaster which anyone could have seen coming, apart from apparently Droy, being sent to a club content with treading water until they get relegated again. Again I can see him walking away to a club that recognises his talent if he has to watch the club bring in donkeys like Saul to take his position in the squad. I can see a situation where we lose both these young players maybe a year before we need them to replace the current veterans. I would prefer to see us play them now (or at least next season) as I can see them offering more creativity than what we are seeing presently. Barkley and Saul out, Gallacher and Gilmour in. Both would end up getting game time.

You have gone off on a slight tangent here. I am not sure what my praising of Jorginho has to do with whether or not the GIlmour and Gallagher loans were smart moves, and even less sure what it has got to do with Barkley (who we tried and failed to get rid of)

However, it's worth noting:

Saul has played 45 minutes of PL football and 25 minutes of CL football. 

Barkley has played 7 minutes of PL football and 15 of CL football.

These two are hardly blocking anyone's path, and those combined 92 minutes in 3 months of football would hardly be a sensible way for Gilmour (349 PL minutes so far)  and Gallagher (611) to be developing. For both of these players, their best chance of earning a long term Chelsea career is to be out on loan doing what they are doing, not sitting on our bench or, more likely, being sat in the stands (with or without Saul being here)

Edited by paulw66
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6 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Saul has played 45 minutes of PL football and 25 minutes of CL football. 

Barkley has played 7 minutes of PL football and 15 of CL football.

These two are hardly blocking anyone's path, and those combined 92 minutes in 3 months of football would hardly be a sensible way for Gilmour (349 PL minutes so far)  and Gallagher (611) to be developing. For both of these players, their best chance of earning a long term Chelsea career is to be out on loan doing what they are doing, not sitting on our bench or, more likely, being sat in the stands (with or without Saul being here)

Precisely.  

I'd only add how strange it is that the same people who think that Jorginho isn't physical enough for us, seem to think Gilmour should be playing there for us.

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