JaneB

Chelsea 1 Manchester United 1

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4 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

I've been very strong in my criticism of him, but I don't even think it's right that he was "poor". He just is not the player, in nature, that so many people seem to think he is. Most surprisingly among them, Tuchel. No one in that role is going to match Kante for quality and we have to just accept that, but Loftus-Cheek's qualities are those of a player who plays higher up the pitch, and he did nothing bad per se but nothing as well as the role he was in requires a player to do them.

I hope he has "blown" his chances of playing in a midfield two against anyone who is going to defend from the off against us (so all bar about 4 sides in the league), because he can't do that job well enough. His chances elsewhere ... Probably a better story.

I think TT put him there to be a driving force that can carry and drive the ball with tight control and inside runs to threaten Fred and McT more. An extremely difficult job but against a midfield that is so defensive and so lacklustre in attack it was a really good (but daring) idea. Little risk defensively against that United pairing. Worth trying.  
 

I think TT knows exactly what RLC is and is not. If he should get criticism it must be because he has too much belief in his own coaching abilities. I mean, not many coaches would think they can put a 2D player (no criticism to Ruben) and play him in a 4D position. Oscar is the player TT wished he had because he had the natural ability to make it in that position, but he is trying to make use of the tools available. He has earned the right to have this confidence mind you. 

Edited by Ibn Battuta

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SabCFC   

I guess I should not be surprised by a meltdown from the Chelsea fanbase online after that Juve result and performance that was described as the best football played by a Chelsea side in years. From a 100 to 0 real quick.

My analysis of the game is that we were the much better team, but the team as currently moulded by Tuchel is a team that scores first to win games. From the moment we missed the opportunities to score in the first 20 minutes, we were exposing ourselves to a good old fashioned United counter/robbery. They played the Burnley way, which are their standards these days I suppose.

It is less a problem to solve, and more an identity of the team. The team's ethos is to put pressure to get a first goal and then ease into the game and control it for the rest of it. It's an extremely successful formula, and one that will have much, much improved from the last seasons and of course, won us the CL where we trailed for no more than a few minutes.

But in the PL of two historically good sides, it might fall short. We will compete but it might not be good enough because City can go on a 20 wins in a row run like last season and Liverpool can do as well. Competing is one thing, and the expectation should be to compete, keeping up with 5-7 years well oiled machines as they don't drop points at all, is harder.

 

To go back to the game, I'm really surprised that people insist on Chilwell's absence being the biggest factor. Alonso+CHO created most of our chances, they made it real hard on AWB and Lindelof - Alonso created our best chance with his header to CHO. The downgrade from Chilwell to Alonso is certainly not why we didn't win or didn't have a 100% ideal performance.

No one has spoken about how little influence James ended up having. The main difference between the Leicester game and this one is the absence of Kanté and his vertical runs that allow James to go inside, and their very good understanding together.

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Most of our chances and shots came from the left

The downgrade from Kanté to RLC is staggering. Kovacic on his 2021 form bridges that gap. RLC simply doesn't belong to this level. Sub cameos and rotation games are different to the big games. You can't play as 6 or in a double pivot if your only option is to slalom through people to get out of the pressure. I really hope that Tuchel wisens up to that. Mount can provide a whole more defensive workrate and actual impact on the game as an 8. For Watford it is more than enough, and you can keep Kanté fresh for the West Ham game.

Werner's performance wasn't bad in my opinion for an attacker, but it was bad for a 9. He likes to roam too much and we lacked that box presence and hold up play that Pulisic/Havertz provide. You just can't play him as a lone 9 against deep blocks. I don't think he missed any outrageous chances, but it's the usual overreaction and he is an easy target. He will be important against high lines and will be very useful in support of another striker.

 

Ziyech I thought had another good game with remarkable workrate. CHO is getting tired, good in the first half, a ghost in the second - very unfair to blame that on Alonso who was very solid, and continues to be a threat.

Jorginho was excellent despite the mistake. I do not understand why he wasn't inside the box as decoy and left to cover. James/CHO should be covering, not Jorginho for obvious reasons. I suppose it's because RLC was also inside the box for the set-piece, but that's the kind of details I expect Tuchel to look at more carefully.

I was frustrated by Tuchel's subs, especially leaving out RLC for 90 minutes. But I will say, in retrospect, I understand the Mount and Pulisic introductions on the right. The point wasn't to replace Alonso with James, the point was to revitalise the right side with 2 players operating together, while James was often isolated and got no help from RLC to create overloads. It did work. It reinforces my sentiment that Mount should be on the right with James, it makes a whole lot more difference to have a mobile player alongside James to make him more influential. 

Frustrating, but I don't see reason to panic or frankly shake things up. United played for a lucky draw, they got it. Let's see how things go now with Lukaku coming back. A hot streak of finishing would make things easier for us.

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19 minutes ago, Ibn Battuta said:

I think TT knows exactly what RLC is and is not. If he should get criticism it must be because he has too much belief in his own coaching abilities. I mean, not many coaches would think they can put a 2D player (no criticism to Ruben) and play him in a 4D position. Oscar is the player TT wished he had because he had the natural ability to make it in that position, but he is trying to make use of the tools available. He has earned the right to have this confidence mind you

Completely agree, for what it is worth. I found the idea I could see something not working but Tuchel, infinitely better at this than I am, couldn't very unsettling!

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SabCFC   
2 hours ago, Bison said:

True. Nearly 300m spent on the likes of Werner, Havertz, Pulisic, Lukaku and Ziyech and they have 8 Premier League goals between them this season. 29 for Jota, Mane, Firminho and Salah.

Does that group of Werner, Havertz, Pulisic, Lukaku and Ziyech get over/under 35 league goals for the season? I'd bet the under.

Complete misconception though of what both clubs try to do.

Liverpool play the same XI almost every game, they run the same front 3 which they condition physically to do so (think of the days we ran the same attack every game under Ancelotti). Five years of playing together, same profile when looking for Jota (a poacher - he's trash with Portugal when he's asked to do more on the ball).

Chelsea and City rotate the attack constantly and the attackers suffer from that statistically. Mané had a drought at the start of the season, but still played until he regained his goalscoring form. That's not something you get at City and Chelsea, you'll get rotated all the time.

Mahrez, Sterling, KDB, Jesus all have just 2 goals. Grealish, £100m, has 1 goal. Instead, Gundogan continues to score because in their system he's inside the box a lot, same way with our WBs. 

And I have no qualms about the strategy. Liverpool have a super team XI, yet their dynasty will most likely consist of one PL title, one CL and maybe one more major trophy. You could have won a lot more trophies with players who will be considered as all time greats. But it's the decision they made - focus their resources to win a few specific trophies.

City and Chelsea play every competition to win. Carabao Cups, FA Cups included where they go far every year. For that, you need big squads and loads of rotation. 

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CHO - Yes, he's still flattering to decieve, but the important thing is that he is improving this season. He is getting into good positions and running at defenders now, rathar than consistently stopping, passing the ball sideways or backwards, as he did time and again last season.

 

Leaving the slowest player as last man was a huge mistake which cost us bigtime, but we should never be leaving just one man back on his own, no matter what pace they have.

Again, similar with the Burnley game, we deserved to have won but we didn't create loads of great chances as some seem to think. The CHO chance was far from easy and very similar to the Burnley one.  He was  composed enough to pick the right spot, but their keeper is excellent at stopping these kinds of chances.  Only a Salah level finisher would be fav from that position with him being able to bend it at pace into the far corner.

The Rudi chance at the end was hardly easy for a CB. Id say only James would have been fav to put that away.

Werner is Werner, so nothing is easy for him, sadly.

Lots of huffing and puffing and balls pinging about in and around the box, but not that many actual clear cut chances. 

 

 

 

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SabCFC   
19 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

 

Lots of huffing and puffing and balls pinging about in and around the box, but not that many actual clear cut chances. 

 

 

 

The huffing and puffing is putting teams under pressure for long enough periods that they will crack. It's what we did to Newcastle for example. What we did to Juventus a few days ago. It's what City does every week - it's what they did to us this season. Put enough pressure even if you're not creating big chances, it usually leads to goals. It's how big games are played and won.

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Holymoly   

I know Werner has other qualities that benefit the team but at the end of the day he's in the side to score goals. Neither of these players stick in our minds as being prolific either.

 

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chelboy   
3 hours ago, Bison said:

 

Does that group of Werner, Havertz, Pulisic, Lukaku and Ziyech get over/under 35 league goals for the season? I'd bet the under.

Because of Lukaku I would say that group probably hits 35 or just over. I can see Lukaku hitting 15. If the others can’t fill the rest then questions should be asked. 
 

 

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SabCFC   

You don't win the Champions League with Michy or Morata. 

That's the entire point. You buy players to win trophies, not to win Ballon d'Ors.

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chelboy   
39 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

The CHO chance was far from easy and very similar to the Burnley one.  He was  composed enough to pick the right spot, but their keeper is excellent at stopping these kinds of chances.  Only a Salah level finisher would be fav from that position with him being able to bend it at pace into the far corner.

 

 

 

Lets not make excuses for him, that was an easy chance as was the Burnley one. He just isn’t a good finisher. I think CHO has to find a way to give GK’s the eye or make them off balance by faking/delaying shots because even when he picks his spot he doesn’t strike the ball very cleanly. It’s not the end of the world if his finishing doesn’t improve because he is quite good at creating things and has pretty good delivery. 

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