JaneB

Chelsea 1 Manchester United 1

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57 minutes ago, SabCFC said:

The downgrade from Kanté to RLC is staggering. Kovacic on his 2021 form bridges that gap. RLC simply doesn't belong to this level. Sub cameos and rotation games are different to the big games. You can't play as 6 or in a double pivot if your only option is to slalom through people to get out of the pressure. I really hope that Tuchel wisens up to that. Mount can provide a whole more defensive workrate and actual impact on the game as an 8. For Watford it is more than enough, and you can keep Kanté fresh for the West Ham game.

1 hour ago, Ibn Battuta said:

I think TT put him there to be a driving force that can carry and drive the ball with tight control and inside runs to threaten Fred and McT more. An extremely difficult job but against a midfield that is so defensive and so lacklustre in attack it was a really good (but daring) idea. Little risk defensively against that United pairing. Worth trying.  

I think TT knows exactly what RLC is and is not. If he should get criticism it must be because he has too much belief in his own coaching abilities. I mean, not many coaches would think they can put a 2D player (no criticism to Ruben) and play him in a 4D position. Oscar is the player TT wished he had because he had the natural ability to make it in that position, but he is trying to make use of the tools available. He has earned the right to have this confidence mind you. 

55 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Completely agree, for what it is worth. I found the idea I could see something not working but Tuchel, infinitely better at this than I am, couldn't very unsettling!

And people say I am the only one....
I'd like to take up TVF's point.  I suspect the real issue is that he is trusting to the Academy and loan coaches too much.
They told him Chalobah was a proper player, he believed them and that worked out well.
They probably told him that he should have picked Mount on his first game  - they were right.
But I suspect they are telling him that RLC is a playmaker because that is where he starred as a youngster.  And TT is too trusting (this time).

Much as they told Lampard and Darke that Billy was ready as a CM/playmaker when he was clearly 100 games and 6" short.

46 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

The Rudi chance at the end was hardly easy for a CB. Id say only James would have been fav to put that away.

James should have / would have been there but Rudiger was so eager to get in the box and so James dropped back into Rudiger's position.  On TV you could see James watching Rudiger and thinking...
I love Rudiger's eagerness though, so early Gallas.

57 minutes ago, SabCFC said:

Ziyech I thought had another good game with remarkable workrate. CHO is getting tired, good in the first half, a ghost in the second - very unfair to blame that on Alonso who was very solid, and continues to be a threat.

Jorginho was excellent despite the mistake. I do not understand why he wasn't inside the box as decoy and left to cover. James/CHO should be covering, not Jorginho for obvious reasons. I suppose it's because RLC was also inside the box for the set-piece, but that's the kind of details I expect Tuchel to look at more carefully.

....
Frustrating, but I don't see reason to panic or frankly shake things up. United played for a lucky draw, they got it. Let's see how things go now with Lukaku coming back. A hot streak of finishing would make things easier for us.

Loads of good points throughout that post
Jorginho as the man at the back.  First it was a great Garry Owen that worked and might well have caught out others.  It allowed 2 sprinters out of their box to charge one defender .  I wonder if Jorginho tried to control it when he should have let it bounce (though that would have been risky on a modern high bouncing pitch).  it seemed to come off his chest and then land accidentally on his foot and go off in a tricky direction.
Usually Kante sits there or Kovacic.  Neither would have been any more reliable to control a plummeting ball like that.  Even Kante couldn't outsprint Sancho or Rashford after giving them a 10 yard start.
With Kante out, it has been Jorginho sometimes + the FB not taking the corners - James or Chilwell when a striker stays up.  it was odd to see Alonso defending sometime instead of taking or being a target for our corners.   I think CHO was sitting towards the end of the match.  He won't like it but it is probably better than RLC sitting.

 

(last bit removed as I had misunderstood the quote I used from Sab.)

Edited by Droy was my hero

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Ham   
1 hour ago, Droy was my hero said:

And people say I am the only one....
I'd like to take up TVF's point.  I suspect the real issue is that he is trusting to the Academy and loan coaches too much.
They told him Chalobah was a proper player, he believed them and that worked out well.
They probably told him that he should have picked Mount on his first game  - they were right.
But I suspect they are telling him that RLC is a playmaker because that is where he starred as a youngster.  And TT is too trusting (this time).

Much as they told Lampard and Darke that Billy was ready as a CM/playmaker when he was clearly 100 games and 6" short.

James should have / would have been there but Rudiger was so eager to get in the box and so James dropped back into Rudiger's position.  On TV you could see James watching Rudiger and thinking...
I love Rudiger's eagerness though, so early Gallas.

Loads of good points throughout that post
Jorginho as the man at the back.  First it was a great Garry Owen that worked and might well have caught out others.  It allowed 2 sprinters out of their box to charge one defender .  I wonder if Jorginho tried to control it when he should have let it bounce (though that would have been risky on a modern high bouncing pitch).  it seemed to come off his chest and then land accidentally on his foot and go off in a tricky direction.
Usually Kante sits there or Kovacic.  Neither would have been any more reliable to control a plummeting ball like that.  Even Kante couldn't outsprint Sancho or Rashford after giving them a 10 yard start.
With Kante out, it has been Jorginho sometimes + the FB not taking the corners - James or Chilwell when a striker stays up.  it was odd to see Alonso defending sometime instead of taking or being a target for our corners.   I think CHO was sitting towards the end of the match.  He won't like it but it is probably better than RLC sitting.

 

(last bit removed as I had misunderstood the quote I used from Sab.)

Even by your standards, this comment in defence of Jorginho whilst having a dig at others is a stretch. 

Why not just leave it at "Jorginho had a good game but made a horrendous mistake?"

This was a complete brain fart.  He should have headed it away or controlled it on the thigh with his knee up. To try to kill it whilst actually facing the wrong way was stupid and I don't believe Kovacic or Kante would have done the same. 

Edited by Ham
Autocorrect
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26 minutes ago, Ham said:

Even by your standards, this comment in defence of Jorginho whilst having a dig at others is a stretch. 

Even by your standard, that is a contrived moan.

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Just now, Droy was my hero said:

Even by your standard, that is a contrived moan.

Even by your standards so is this .

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3 hours ago, Holymoly said:

I know Werner has other qualities that benefit the team but at the end of the day he's in the side to score goals. Neither of these players stick in our minds as being prolific either.

 

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😮

The standard in the Bundesliga must be appalling for Werner to have scored so many goals there.

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3 hours ago, chelboy said:

Lets not make excuses for him, that was an easy chance as was the Burnley one. He just isn’t a good finisher. I think CHO has to find a way to give GK’s the eye or make them off balance by faking/delaying shots because even when he picks his spot he doesn’t strike the ball very cleanly. It’s not the end of the world if his finishing doesn’t improve because he is quite good at creating things and has pretty good delivery. 

Depends what your definition of an easy chance is.

Mine is when  a striker has only the keeper to beat and has the whole goal to aim at. Trying to beat a good keeper at an angle, a keeper who is one of the best at stopping shots with his feet, is in no way what I'd describe as an easy chance. More like a 50/50 chance.

However, I do agree with CHO needing to learn some tricks to put off the keeper in such situations and the point about his ball striking not being all that good at the moment. These are all faults which he should be able to improve on.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ham said:

Even by your standards, this comment in defence of Jorginho whilst having a dig at others is a stretch. 

Why not just leave it at "Jorginho had a good game but made a horrendous mistake?"

I didn't read it as a defence of Jorginho's mistake (he made one, it was bloody annoying and sent the game the way it went), more a criticism of the idea that having Jorginho in that position is an issue. I think most people would agree that Jorginho won't add much in the box, and that that the only other players who can do as good a job as him collecting a clearance and getting it back unto attacking play are those who do offer something in the box (Silva and Rudiger imo). If you think about it in those terms, Jorginho is the obvious choice to have hanging back from an attacking corner, and his lack of pace is a defensive risk you take because of the attacking advantage he offers you on second balls.

I think he just made a mistake, perhaps a bit of over-confidence, and deserves criticism for that. I don't buy, at all, that of the options it was an issue having him in that role rather than someone else.

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Ham   
16 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I didn't read it as a defence of Jorginho's mistake (he made one, it was bloody annoying and sent the game the way it went), more a criticism of the idea that having Jorginho in that position is an issue. I think most people would agree that Jorginho won't add much in the box, and that that the only other players who can do as good a job as him collecting a clearance and getting it back unto attacking play are those who do offer something in the box (Silva and Rudiger imo). If you think about it in those terms, Jorginho is the obvious choice to have hanging back from an attacking corner, and his lack of pace is a defensive risk you take because of the attacking advantage he offers you on second balls.

I think he just made a mistake, perhaps a bit of over-confidence, and deserves criticism for that. I don't buy, at all, that of the options it was an issue having him in that role rather than someone else.

I wasn't criticising Jorginho at all or the decision to have him stay back, just the unnecessary backhanded criticism of others, including the obligatory Kovacic comment. 

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Blue Rod   

Enjoying the constructive debates in the forum. 

Tuchel has to admit that playing RLC as a 6 partner to Jorginho was a mistake.

Usually it's Kante that would have dealt with that ball that led to Manutd goal. In the absence of Kante, then RLC should have stood there instead. Whoever asked Jorginho to take that role should put their hands up.

The problem with RLC was not only that he was played in a 6 position. Whether you are in a 6, 8, or 9, you need to show basic footballing nous, read the game and be aware of what the team needs from you in each situation. That is what leaves me pessimistic of RLC's prospects. Kante is not the best technician in the game, but he works out what to do in every situation on the pitch. 

This was a match where our key subs should have come in by the 60th minutes. By that time we were basically playing like a broken record. Tuchel left it too late to make the subs.

I don't want or sound rude, but I do sense a bit of unhelpful cockiness about Tuchel - like, "it's  all about the luck of football; sometimes you play like that and you win, other times you don't", same comments as after the Burnley game. I'm sorry, but once you realise you've got a selection wrong, you should be bold enough to rectify it early. We can leave the philosophy for much later.

I wouldn't be saying this if I were an Arsenal fan. Luckily I'm a Chelsea fan, and I do feel that a Jose Mourinho or Conte, in those PL winning seasons,  sensing that this may be their season, would have shown more hunger to win the Burnley and Manutd matches. 

 

 

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