My Blood Is Blue

Chelsea 2 Liverpool 2

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SabCFC   
16 minutes ago, Blue Rod said:

If Jorginho was sent to help slow down and kill the game, then it worked. My argument was that we needed to instead up the sticks and grab a win. With Jorginho coming on, we looked less likely to achieve that. Others think we actually lost control. 

Okay, maybe I was exaggerating a little bit. Jorginho can hit some passes, sometimes, just not enough for me. But in the context of this particular match, he stalled our progress. He was the only option on the bench, to be fair. But if we had an assertive midfielder with a bit of pace and power coming on at that stage, we would have taken control of the match and won it.. 

That's a completely wrong reading of the game. This was a game without control from either side. Extremely open, extremely direct, tons of chances either way. You do not just take complete control of the game, unless Liverpool completely collapses. They're Liverpool not Newcastle or Norwich. We did retake moderate control of the game - before Jorginho, Liverpool were starting to create a lot more in a one-sided way (especially start of the 2nd half - Liverpool had 10 shots all game, 4 of them came in quick succession between the 45th minute and the 70th minute - right before the Jorginho sub, Liverpool had no shots after he came on). They brought on Keita & AOC, two very good players on the ball to slow us down. It worked, but we also didn't let them control the rest of the game thanks to Jorginho. They had nowhere to go with the ball, nothing to create. On the other side, while we slowed down in attack, we had tons of set-pieces and some sustained pressure. The attackers (Havertz & Mount were exhausted) weren't going to be as active. So it worked perfectly on TT's side.

There is no magical unicorn CM who stops the opposition *and* somehow relieves the entire team from the fatigue it accumulated and magically ups the pressing intensity of their tired team mates. Against Brighton, bringing Kanté on, stopped Brighton from creating and that's the control you can get when players are tired and can't press: one player doesn't fix big picture issues (like a collective, coordinated, effective press), they are strategic fixes.

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paulw66   
12 minutes ago, SabCFC said:

That's a completely wrong reading of the game. This was a game without control from either side. Extremely open, extremely direct, tons of chances either way. You do not just take complete control of the game, unless Liverpool completely collapses. They're Liverpool not Newcastle or Norwich. We did retake moderate control of the game - before Jorginho, Liverpool were starting to create a lot more in a one-sided way (especially start of the 2nd half - Liverpool had 10 shots all game, 4 of them came in quick succession between the 45th minute and the 70th minute - right before the Jorginho sub, Liverpool had no shots after he came on). They brought on Keita & AOC, two very good players on the ball to slow us down. It worked, but we also didn't let them control the rest of the game thanks to Jorginho. They had nowhere to go with the ball, nothing to create. On the other side, while we slowed down in attack, we had tons of set-pieces and some sustained pressure. The attackers (Havertz & Mount were exhausted) weren't going to be as active. So it worked perfectly on TT's side.

There is no magical unicorn CM who stops the opposition *and* somehow relieves the entire team from the fatigue it accumulated and magically ups the pressing intensity of their tired team mates. Against Brighton, bringing Kanté on, stopped Brighton from creating and that's the control you can get when players are tired and can't press: one player doesn't fix big picture issues (like a collective, coordinated, effective press), they are strategic fixes.

Nice summary. 

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1 hour ago, Bob Singleton said:

Yes... almost as if they don't have the "Protestant work ethic" of white, Anglo-Saxon working class males! Strange, isn't it? Completely at odds with the sort of headlines to be found on the front pages of those very same newspapers. Oh, wait...

Yes.  We like our black players like Essien and Kante, happy to touch their forelock and accept that we are the cleverer players while they just offer hard graft.  Good Empire Africans that we could pack off to WW1 or 2 without a complaint.

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3 hours ago, SabCFC said:

The issue still exists though for Black foreign players, who don't have the network of English players, and are often misunderstood because they come from different cultures (Francophone culture in particular). Anelka, Drogba, Evra in the past, Pogba recently. And now, this story seems to give the green light for a lot of pundits/journalists or whatever to go full blast on Lukaku - lazy, disgrace, diva , troublesome - some of those descriptions are borderline, stereotypes that are easily stamped on these guys, which is always suspicious to me. 

Yes. I think the idea that has taken hold among many that Lukaku is self-serving or egotistical cannot be entirely divorced from his race. Which is not to say anyone who thinks he has an ego is a racist, but to say it is interesting how strongly that belief takes hold when a black man presents or is presented as being outspoken as opposed to when a white man (Kane being a reasonable example) does.

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4 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Yes. I think the idea that has taken hold among many that Lukaku is self-serving or egotistical cannot be entirely divorced from his race. Which is not to say anyone who thinks he has an ego is a racist, but to say it is interesting how strongly that belief takes hold when a black man presents or is presented as being outspoken as opposed to when a white man (Kane being a reasonable example) does.

Well said. Well put

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Blue Rod   
3 hours ago, SabCFC said:

That's a completely wrong reading of the game. This was a game without control from either side. Extremely open, extremely direct, tons of chances either way. You do not just take complete control of the game, unless Liverpool completely collapses. They're Liverpool not Newcastle or Norwich. We did retake moderate control of the game - before Jorginho, Liverpool were starting to create a lot more in a one-sided way (especially start of the 2nd half - Liverpool had 10 shots all game, 4 of them came in quick succession between the 45th minute and the 70th minute - right before the Jorginho sub, Liverpool had no shots after he came on). They brought on Keita & AOC, two very good players on the ball to slow us down. It worked, but we also didn't let them control the rest of the game thanks to Jorginho. They had nowhere to go with the ball, nothing to create. On the other side, while we slowed down in attack, we had tons of set-pieces and some sustained pressure. The attackers (Havertz & Mount were exhausted) weren't going to be as active. So it worked perfectly on TT's side.

There is no magical unicorn CM who stops the opposition *and* somehow relieves the entire team from the fatigue it accumulated and magically ups the pressing intensity of their tired team mates. Against Brighton, bringing Kanté on, stopped Brighton from creating and that's the control you can get when players are tired and can't press: one player doesn't fix big picture issues (like a collective, coordinated, effective press), they are strategic fixes.

Of course we were playing against Liverpool, a top team. But so were Spurs and West Ham recently. Both teams stepped up their game in the 4th quarter. One beat them, the other drew and nearly beat them. Both results had seemed improbable on paper. 

Liverpool is a beatable team if you can survive their 60 min onslaught. Most pundits think Jorginho coming in was like throwing in the towel. I for once agree with them. 

Whereas everyone could see what Kante and Kovacic did in that match, as always the case, Jorginho's contribution seemed only visible to the trained eyes. I want a contribution that I can see. 

I get this feeling that next season we will still be rationalising, intellectualising and philosophising why we could not beat this team or that. "Oh, don't you know what they are...?" We started this phenomenon after the Burnley game, and have been philosophising since, whether we are playing a top rival or some middle of the league team. Now look where we are. 

I have a lot of respect for Tuchel. But I just get this feeling that this was the kind of match where our last title-winning managers might have snatched a win. 

Edited by Blue Rod

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4 hours ago, SabCFC said:

I think you're misinterpreting here. My "accusation" wasn't towards Kane, it was an observation that white English footballers have a circle of friends in the media that usually protects them, and that's been obvious from quite some time. Kane has been very insulated when he was voluntarily missing training to force a move. Foden & Grealish have escaped most recently. For many years, Sterling had been horribly mistreated. Now I will say, like Droy noted, Black players have wisen up to this and have started to talk more publicly and strengthened their PR arsenal. Good for them.

The issue still exists though for Black foreign players, who don't have the network of English players, and are often misunderstood because they come from different cultures (Francophone culture in particular). Anelka, Drogba, Evra in the past, Pogba recently. And now, this story seems to give the green light for a lot of pundits/journalists or whatever to go full blast on Lukaku - lazy, disgrace, diva , troublesome - some of those descriptions are borderline, stereotypes that are easily stamped on these guys, which is always suspicious to me. 

Thank you for explaining exactly what you meant in your previous post. 😊

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

Yes. I think the idea that has taken hold among many that Lukaku is self-serving or egotistical cannot be entirely divorced from his race. Which is not to say anyone who thinks he has an ego is a racist, but to say it is interesting how strongly that belief takes hold when a black man presents or is presented as being outspoken as opposed to when a white man (Kane being a reasonable example) does.

Glen Hoddle was criticized for being lazy and not liking the physical side of the game. Known to some as Glenda Hoddle.

Matt le tisseir - lazy.

Vinnie Jones - a thug.

Ronaldo -  an ego maniac.

Shaw -  a lazy fat slob.

Revie's Leeds - dirty cheating bastards.

Pele - genius 

Fat Ronaldo  - genius.

Ronaldinhio - genius.

Makale was so respected that he had a position named after him.

Despite that, we are sadly  now living in an era where anyone who says anything negative about a Black person will have some people looking at them with a suspicious eye. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Glen Hoddle was criticized for being lazy and not liking the physical side of the game. Known to some as Glenda Hoddle.

Matt le tisseir - lazy.

Vinnie Jones - a thug.

Ronaldo -  an ego maniac.

Shaw -  a lazy fat slob.

Revie's Leeds - dirty cheating bastards.

Pele - genius 

Fat Ronaldo  - genius.

Ronaldinhio - genius.

Makale was so respected that he had a position named after him.

Despite that, we are sadly  now living in an era where anyone who says anything negative about a Black person will have some people looking at them with a suspicious eye. 

I think you need to ask yourself what this list is meant to prove in relation to my post (it appears to be "some white people have been criticised and some black people are held by many in high regard", which is obvious and a bit odd), and why you felt the need to post it and make an unnecessary defence of yourself. 

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