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chelboy   
25 minutes ago, didierforever said:

 

We might win a league Cup/FA Cup/ maybe even the CL. But the actual eliteness of a club is shown in the domestic league titles which requires consistency over elongated periods. 

This. If you can’t play well consistently then I don’t think you can call yourself a great team. TT winning the CL raised expectations which have been too high for this team. They can’t play with the pressure of having to be consistent from August to May. They struggle with it mentally. If TT can make us become a team that can perform from August to May consistently then it would be the biggest achievement he has made so far. Right now we are just a cup team. Cups only take one bad decision from the ref and you could be knocked out. Becoming a league team is far more difficult and mentally tougher over the entire season. That’s what I want to see us become. 

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21 minutes ago, RDC Williams said:

No. The measure of success is winning the league, or at least coming close.

The fact that we are so far behind City is itself indicative of a failure of some sort: even if they are a freakishly talented, expensively assembled squad we only have to play them twice, so to be considerably more than 6 points behind them is a mediocre performance.

 

Even if we accept your premise we are currently on course for a return of marginally under 76 points for the season, a total which would have put us at least 10 points behind the winners in all but 1 of the last 10 seasons (5 points behind the the mighty Leicester total in 2016). Most years 76 points will get you 3rd place, which is exactly where we are as a club.

The idea that the measure of the success of a signing is in the number of appearances he goes on to make is a particularly silly one. We all know what a good signing looks like and there have not been many recently despite the many appearances made by relatively recent acquisitions. There are many reasons why someone might make a lot of appearances despite being ineffective, including having no other options, a need to justify the outlay, managerial stubbornness, the sacrifice of common sense and empirical evidence on the altar of tactical rigidity, the construction of false premises on which to judge competence........in the end if a goalkeeper continues not to be able to save goals, defenders are not competent, or have glaring inadequacies in their games, the attacking midfielders do not create or score goals and the front men are not prolific and are incapable of scoring or supplying chances, it is easy to judge that they have not been good signings. You will find that the complex human mind and its ability to multiprocess in an intuitive manner is usually accurate in this judgement process, because that is what it is evolved to do. That is why algorithmic processes have so far to go in rivalling the observational human senses (for which you have such disdain).

If it looks like a pig, snorts like a pig and waddles like a pig, then it almost certainly is a pig, even if you put lipstick on it.

Edited by RDC Williams

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Ham   
4 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Blows my mind how quickly some on here turn on the manager. Ignoring everything we’ve had to deal with this season (injuries, covid, fixture congestion whilst others get breaks, Lukaku’s interview) and all the while has us top 3 in the league (against 2 of the most dominant sides we’ve seen in the PL), In the final of the LC, still in CL & FA cup and reigning CL champions. He’s also only had one signing since being here.

Sure, we’re in a rough patch, but that’s what it is, a rough patch and one one that coincided with us losing a key player for the remainder of the season and a whole bunch of other injuries. We’ve almost got all our hardest league fixtures out the way now, so it’s very possible we can put together a strong run of victories… then what will everyone say about him? Comparing Tuchel’s Chelsea to Pep’s Man City is all but pointless, different scenarios, different set ups, different spending, totally different situations. Also, Pep in his 6 years still hasn’t won the CL!

I'm not suggesting we don’t have any problems, but the speed in which some of your turn on a manager is laughable. If you can’t see how well he’s done at our club then I’m not going to try and convince you.

Spot on.  I can't believe how many fans have forgotten where we were before the injury/Covid crisis and how depleted we've been since November.

When not decimated we're a top top team pushing for the title. City haven't had to deal with this at all. TT had the perfect balance and set up and then the gods decided that wasn't on. 

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Watching that yesterday, and having slept on it - I think our best team beats theirs. 
 

Our best team doesn’t include the record signing! Not only did he not manage to win one header, he lost all the physical battles to and expended more focus on the silly De-Bruyne greeting. I reckon the fans there yesterday spent more effort and emotional involvement than our record signing did during the game. Unfortunately for us our best team includes the two injured wing-backs. 
 

I thought it was a massive overspend at the time the deal was happening and it would seem so based on what’s occurring on the pitch. Difficult one to deal with now though without a massive commercial loss. 

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13 minutes ago, Ham said:

Spot on.  I can't believe how many fans have forgotten where we were before the injury/Covid crisis and how depleted we've been since November.

When not decimated we're a top top team pushing for the title. City haven't had to deal with this at all. TT had the perfect balance and set up and then the gods decided that wasn't on. 

I think once the dust settles on this season were going to find that we've had countless players playing carrying injury , coming back before fully recovered from injury and illness etc.

I think Tuchel is doing the best he possibly can considering he's still not signed anyone , word is we're now trying to sign Perisic from Inter Milan who's 32 , I expect that ones down to Conte again.

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17 minutes ago, Ham said:

Spot on.  I can't believe how many fans have forgotten where we were before the injury/Covid crisis and how depleted we've been since November.

When not decimated we're a top top team pushing for the title. City haven't had to deal with this at all. TT had the perfect balance and set up and then the gods decided that wasn't on. 

Exactly! We were being told we were one of the best teams in the world when we were in full flow, with a fully fit squad and that probably wasn't that far from the truth.

Tuchel made a good point after the game yesterday (some will say an excuse) that when you have a fully fit squad, it adds an extra 5% to everyone as they are competing to start with each other and the competition levels in training go up etc, but for the last month or so, the team is being picked based on whoever is fit or fittest and so that extra 5% is missing due to a lack of competition etc.

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1 hour ago, Bison said:

It's just bizarre, isn't it?

'The 50m striker who has scored 7 league goals in 2 seasons isn't a failure because he has featured in 45 games'

'The 72m attacker with 6 league goals in 2 seasons isn't a failure because he's featured in 42 games'

I guess it's hard to fail when being able to hang around like a fart in a confined space is all you need to do.

Failing is never getting picked in a weak squad.  This is a strong squad.  The only failure is Barkley.

1 hour ago, RDC Williams said:

No. The measure of success is winning the league, or at least coming close.

Look at the history - failure has always been on an absolute basis, not relative.  I understand your agenda changes historical facts for you, but that takes you out of the public debate.

1 hour ago, RDC Williams said:

Even if we accept your premise we are currently on course for a return of marginally under 76 points for the season,

Yes - 76 points would be a disappointment, but still a level that only Ranieri has been sacked for.  TT would be at risk with 76 points.
 

1 hour ago, RDC Williams said:

The idea that the measure of the success of a signing is in the number of appearances he goes on to make is a particularly silly one.

Tell that to a football manager or director.  It is the only proper measure.  The idea that a player can be a success without making appearances (or at least being sold for a profit soon) or that a player who is not selected ahead of his peers consistently is a failure is just plain daft.  
Bats, Zappa, Baka, Barkley, Drinkwater, these are the failures.  

You are arguing with simple logic and struggling with it.

 

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1 hour ago, RDC Williams said:

No. The measure of success is winning the league, or at least coming close.

 

Difficult to agree with Droy too often but I do think success is winning things and if we dont win anything this season it would therefore not be a success but given Peps spending, his only way to succeed, its hard to take the prem from him. He has only ever won at the richest clubs.

However, we had to improve in the league and for me second would be a success (3rd less so but still better) given we would have snuck into the CL this season based on the league.

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Blue Rod   
7 hours ago, Blue_In_Every_Way said:

Ziyech never looked this bad at Ajax. Ziyech and Pulisic now look like guys completely lost. Havertz and Lukaku as well. 

Listening to Tuchel blame the front-line post-match was absolutely cringeworthy. 

Hopefully someone lets him know that the transition offensive situations broke down because he couldn't coach a group of attacking players if his life depended on it. 

You couldn't pick a single attacker at the moment having a good season at Chelsea. Lukaku, Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech, Havertz, Hudson-Odoi, Mount - you name them and they suck right now. They've been awful since mid-November. Sooner or later the coach has to look at himself.

Exactly.

I raised a similar comment about Lampard when every single player was underperforming and Rudiger was not fit for Championship football according to some of our fans. Suddenly Tuchel turned up and every player was transformed. Some people just can't accept that no manager, not even Tuchel himself is above scrutiny, no matter what they have won. RDM's CL feat was arguably a harder accomplishment. But it did not make him a saint. Some of these players have always had limited abilities. But they were nowhere near as bad when we signed them.

1 hour ago, didierforever said:

Ziyech not looking this bad might be due to the fact that he played in the Dutch league where we send our 19-20 year olds for development. So basically it's a league where the u23s were his competition. It's a pisspoor league and shows in the type of performances he puts forward.

I don't think TT is doing a bad job. He is definitely not getting the best out of the squad currently, but I am more focused and worried about the board and the club as a whole. 

We have damned near spent as much as city. We simply gloss over it by selling too. But if we look simply at how much we have spent, it's right up there. And we are light ****ing years away from city. 

Anyone saying "we are there thereabouts" and trying to put a positive spin on "not getting embarassed" is taking the bloody piss. First of all, when a fan base is happy that "atleast we did not get embarassed", just shows how far we have fallen as a club. Secondly, it's not even a competition. We can win a cup game, defending for our lives etc etc. But over the course of 38 games, the consistency in attack, defence, transition from mid etc, we are way off. The fact that we (once again), won't even finish within single digits of the PL winners is testament to that. Most of it stems from having no vision, leading to buying the likes of bakayoko, Barkley, ziyechs of the world. These 3 won't even be included in plan z for city. And not just these 3, but plenty more. 

We need a vision. We are pissing away RA's money on trash. A sporting director who knows exactly how the club should be playing and build on it. We have been in eternal transition since 2012 and nothing is gonna change (except for the managers ofcourse), if we don't get some direction. 

We might win a league Cup/FA Cup/ maybe even the CL. But the actual eliteness of a club is shown in the domestic league titles which requires consistency over elongated periods. 

I am seriously worried about the board and the club, and unless you are one of those who think your mission on earth is to defend and praise the establishment, you should be. These misfiring players are on huge wages. There are few incentives for them to move. And which club will pay Lukaku £325k and Werner 270/ week and take them from us? Marina's case may be turning out a classic example of what happens when a company hands control to a Finance Director. The books start to look good, but before long, the company's performance starts looking south. Another downside of having a Finance person at the top is that professionally they like total control. They are not the type that can be easily overruled. 

The basis of our success over the years has always been that we have a team capable of competing even when the players were getting on a little bit. That is how managers came and went and we just kept marching on. I am baffled how we ended up spending so much money these last 3-4 seasons and ended up with so little in the way of quality - no character, no spine, no leadership upfront, no footballing skills..., no ability to pull the team out of a difficult situation, no match-winning performance.  All this "give it one more season and he will start to shine" is fantasy. 

Sooner or later, the penny will drop. I believe that RA has always operated with his own personal advisers. There is a scenario where the magical transformation fails to materialise next season, and RA wields the axe. 

 

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Bison   
20 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

Failing is never getting picked in a weak squad.  This is a strong squad.  The only failure is Barkley.

Simply beyond delusional. 

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