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Chelsea's forward issues

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ROTG   
2 hours ago, Bob Singleton said:

However, I'm not sure Tuchel can do all that much about it just now. Kovacic, Kante and Jorginho aren't going to turn into a Fabregas style player overnight. Maybe Gallagher returning next season might go some way to us becoming more dynamic? But it'll need more than just him coming into the midfield, at the expense of players who have won titles and cups for us in the past.

Midfield will probably be the focus area for TT and the board this summer with a few coming and some being moved on 

 

Edited by Freeboot-Rightz

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2 hours ago, Freeboot-Rightz said:

Midfield will probably be the focus area for TT and the board this summer with a few coming and some being moved on

Depending on who signs contract extensions, I suspect defence may be equally, if not more, important (although I suspect that both defence and midfield acquisitions for the summer have been worked on for some while already).

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Leo91   

I think our midfield is fine. OK it will have it's poor games but for the most part. Jorginho, Kovacic, Kante, Mount, Gallagher. Very very good. The wide players to whom they give the ball to is very very inconsistent. 

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The idea that Jorginho slows us down is, to me, utterly bizarre and I can only imagine derived from him not being much of a runner himself. He doesn't need to be; he makes the ball do that work. No one else in this team other than our 37 year old (also not much of a sprinter at this point) has his technique or ability to shield under pressure and make an instant pass. If we are too slow, it is absolutely nothing to do with Jorginho. If we can get a player who is an outstanding athlete and does what Jorginho does, great. I don't know how many of those players exist.

Tuchel was instantly fantastic at drilling defensive patterns of play into this team. I think attacking patterns are likely harder to drill, and they don't seem to have taken as well. Perhaps that is down to quality (certainly to different degrees I do not rate some of our players that highly, especially Pulisic and Hudson-Odoi). Perhaps it really just is exhaustion; I imagine it has had a huge impact on how we train. Perhaps the defensive drilling has been almost too successful; I think we often look more conservative than we need to (compare Tuchel vs City last season to this). I would make some personnel changes if I could, but I think there is simultaneously more and less to it than that.

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chelboy   

On Werner, if you include last season he is the one attacker that has had loads of chances. Technically he’s limited and not at the level to start for a team challenging for the title. He’s a poor mans Vardy and I am being kind. He can be a useful rotation player especially in games against a high line. 
 

I don’t think players like Werner and Pulisic would score loads in Liverpool and City. Pulisic isn’t consistent enough and would get far more injuries in a team that runs as much as they do. When last did Pulisic actually have a strong 90 mins performance? I can’t remember. 4-0 Palace last season? 
 

As for the midfield, we haven’t moved the ball quick enough for years. It kills a lot of potential transitions. If you took away 50% of transition goals scored by Liverpool and City it would make a big dent in their goals scored for. It’s an important factor in why teams struggle to cope against them. Those teams play at a different speed to us. It’s not just Jorginho it can also be a team thing. Some games Kova and Kante can be very slow moving it and also our forwards who are in love with taking unnecessary extra touches on the ball. Pulisic, Mount and Havertz are the biggest culprits of this. 
 

I wouldn’t sell Jorginho for now, he’s very good in the CL games, probably one of the first names I would pick for that kind of football. In the PL I wouldn’t start him for more then 12-15 games. Based on past seasons he tends to have a big dip during November - February. He can’t maintain a good level throughout an entire campaign imo. Kante could if he had the fitness but it’s clear he can’t start 30+ pl games like he used to. Kova is probably the most balanced out of the three and probably the most reliable for most parts of the season.  

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The problem with Jorginho is that he's the only one in our squad who can do what he does. We don't have anyone else in midfield who sits deep and can move the ball quickly. Kovacic and Kanté are great players with very different profiles. This means Jorginho has to play every match or we have to change our style. So eventually he's knackered and his levels drop.

Gallagher is more of a Kovacic profile and so far it doesn't seem like RLC is turning into Mikel, so we have no real back-up. I'm a big fan of Rice but he's also more of a ball-carrier than a passer. Gilmour probably needs at least another season on loan before he's ready for the distributor role. This issue may continue for a while, so a different tactical option may be required to get past the Jorginho-reliance of the current system.

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One other issue comes to mind regarding our forwards is that along with our schedule, injuries and Covid, how much time has TT really had on the training pitch to address the issues we are discussing?

With matches coming every three days they can only try to get it right on match days which as we can see hasn't worked.

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Ham   
9 minutes ago, Phoenix Blue said:

One other issue comes to mind regarding our forwards is that along with our schedule, injuries and Covid, how much time has TT really had on the training pitch to address the issues we are discussing?

With matches coming every three days they can only try to get it right on match days which as we can see hasn't worked.

Absolutely. Meanwhile others are well rested and being properly drilled.

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ROTG   
53 minutes ago, Phoenix Blue said:

One other issue comes to mind regarding our forwards is that along with our schedule, injuries and Covid, how much time has TT really had on the training pitch to address the issues we are discussing?

With matches coming every three days they can only try to get it right on match days which as we can see hasn't worked.

Pre-season is for formation and tactics, and a plan B

TT got most of it right except plan B

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ROTG   
4 hours ago, chelboy said:

On Werner, if you include last season he is the one attacker that has had loads of chances. Technically he’s limited and not at the level to start for a team challenging for the title. He’s a poor mans Vardy and I am being kind. He can be a useful rotation player especially in games against a high line. 
 

I don’t think players like Werner and Pulisic would score loads in Liverpool and City. Pulisic isn’t consistent enough and would get far more injuries in a team that runs as much as they do. When last did Pulisic actually have a strong 90 mins performance? I can’t remember. 4-0 Palace last season? 
 

As for the midfield, we haven’t moved the ball quick enough for years. It kills a lot of potential transitions. If you took away 50% of transition goals scored by Liverpool and City it would make a big dent in their goals scored for. It’s an important factor in why teams struggle to cope against them. Those teams play at a different speed to us. It’s not just Jorginho it can also be a team thing. Some games Kova and Kante can be very slow moving it and also our forwards who are in love with taking unnecessary extra touches on the ball. Pulisic, Mount and Havertz are the biggest culprits of this. 
 

I wouldn’t sell Jorginho for now, he’s very good in the CL games, probably one of the first names I would pick for that kind of football. In the PL I wouldn’t start him for more then 12-15 games. Based on past seasons he tends to have a big dip during November - February. He can’t maintain a good level throughout an entire campaign imo. Kante could if he had the fitness but it’s clear he can’t start 30+ pl games like he used to. Kova is probably the most balanced out of the three and probably the most reliable for most parts of the season.  

Sorry the post is way off the mark. 

Werner is a klopp type player and would score a hat full goals if he were playing for him. 

As for transitions, klopp is a modern day Howard Wilkinson who’s ethos was to get the ball to the frontline as quick a possible. Hence if you look at how klopp teams play they bypass the midfield because the frontline turns the oppositions backline as soon as the ball is won. There is no pretty play just get the ball to salah and co as quick as possible. 

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