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Blue Rod   

 

 

 

3 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

Where did I suggest Lukaku should play, let alone displace Havertz? 

You've gone on a complete tangent about all this other stuff which hasn't had any relevance to anything I initially said. Which was merely questioning why Lukaku, a player with his general record, in the current stage of his career that he's in, and having a track record of scoring goals when utilised accordingly, should be happy with simply being a "squad player". 

Irrespective of what you think of him as a player or person he's still a good enough to be first choice at a lot of other clubs, particularly if those clubs also played a system more conducive to maximising his best qualities as a striker. As such his ego isn't the reason why he'd never accept being a squad player here, there's plenty of actual footballing reasons why he wouldn't. 

I'm not overly pressed about what happens moving forward with Lukaku and whether he stays or goes. What has baffled me though is why we signed two strikers who thrive playing counter-attacking football, but by choice play in the complete opposite manner and then wonder why neither have done as well as they possibly could've done.

 

My main question mark on Lukaku is whether he can do more than what he is good at. Yes, he is a better striker than his current form suggests. But when I look at how Conte has been using Kane lately, it's a masterstroke from the Italian.

Conte knows that for all his deadly finish, Kane lacks pace. So he deploys him instead as a supporting striker to Son. It works magic. Kane does not need to chest down the ball and battle defenders. All he has to do is find Son or other runners operating from deep.

Can Lukaku give us that option in a match where defenders may be all over him? Sticking him up there as an old fashioned lighting rod No9 is too simplistic and would never work in the PL or in CL.

And by the way, every time I watch Lukaku, he is slower and more breathless than the previous time. Werner looks more nimble and pacy, and in many respects, the better option, right now.

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24 minutes ago, Blue Rod said:

 

 

 

My main question mark on Lukaku is whether he can do more than what he is good at. Yes, he is a better striker than his current form suggests. But when I look at how Conte has been using Kane lately, it's a masterstroke from the Italian.

Conte knows that for all his deadly finish, Kane lacks pace. So he deploys him instead as a supporting striker to Son. It works magic. Kane does not need to chest down the ball and battle defenders. All he has to do is find Son or other runners operating from deep.

Can Lukaku give us that option in a match where defenders may be all over him? Sticking him up there as an old fashioned lighting rod No9 is too simplistic and would never work in the PL or in CL.

And by the way, every time I watch Lukaku, he is slower and more breathless than the previous time. Werner looks more nimble and pacy, and in many respects, the better option, right now.

There's two flaws to your argument , firstly Lukaku couldn't trap a bag of cement and Kane has a great touch and secondly Conte is often bemoaning the fact that he has to keep reminding Kane that he's the centre forward not a midfielder . 

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xCELERYx   
31 minutes ago, Blue Rod said:

My main question mark on Lukaku is whether he can do more than what he is good at. Yes, he is a better striker than his current form suggests. But when I look at how Conte has been using Kane lately, it's a masterstroke from the Italian.

Conte knows that for all his deadly finish, Kane lacks pace. So he deploys him instead as a supporting striker to Son. It works magic. Kane does not need to chest down the ball and battle defenders. All he has to do is find Son or other runners operating from deep.

Can Lukaku give us that option in a match where defenders may be all over him? Sticking him up there as an old fashioned lighting rod No9 is too simplistic and would never work in the PL or in CL.

And by the way, every time I watch Lukaku, he is slower and more breathless than the previous time. Werner looks more nimble and pacy, and in many respects, the better option, right now.

Which is a fair question to ask because ultimately having a forward who can do things outside of their general wheelhouse helps add an extra dimension. To a degree he can, but not to the extent that we're seeing Kane do under Conte. He's never going to be that heavily involved in general play. 

That's sort of the beauty with Conte though, he showed similar at Inter Milan with how he used both Lukaku and Laturo Martinez together. He recognised that Lukaku needed to do better with his back to goal so had him work on it intensely at training, which reaped rewards in games where he could isolate his man and pin them back deep. Giving him the ability to either then roll off his man and use his strength to get shot off, or lay it off for an oncoming team mate. This allowed Lukaku to be more than just a striker who had to play face up and give him an extra element. Even though this was quite a publicly known thing to have happened. I think some of it was misinterpreted by those who didn't actually watch Serie A though, because I get the impression quite a few expected his back to goal play to be more "Drogba-like", where he'd hold off two or three defenders or alike. It was never really that sort of back to goal play. 

The way we try to utilise Lukaku though makes it hard to really extract anything out of him, purely because he's often not in the sort of positions where he can't make use of his skills, or isn't getting the sort of service into him that's needed. Admittedly, it hasn't helped that he looks a bit heavier than he did at Inter. Maybe some of that is down to not having a proper pre-season here, I don't know, but it has impacted his movement and speed to a degree.

With that all being said I do believe if that we swapped Lukaku and Kane right now, Lukaku would thrive again under Conte and Kane would look worse and be less effective here. Purely because Conte is a coach who'll look to maximise what he has, where as Tuchel is more about a system structure and having the roles he envisions performed even if it's not to the strength of the player on hand.

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5 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

Where did I suggest Lukaku should play, let alone displace Havertz? 

You've gone on a complete tangent about all this other stuff which hasn't had any relevance to anything I initially said. Which was merely questioning why Lukaku, a player with his general record, in the current stage of his career that he's in, and having a track record of scoring goals when utilised accordingly, should be happy with simply being a "squad player". 

Irrespective of what you think of him as a player or person he's still a good enough to be first choice at a lot of other clubs, particularly if those clubs also played a system more conducive to maximising his best qualities as a striker. As such his ego isn't the reason why he'd never accept being a squad player here, there's plenty of actual footballing reasons why he wouldn't. 

I'm not overly pressed about what happens moving forward with Lukaku and whether he stays or goes. What has baffled me though is why we signed two strikers who thrive playing counter-attacking football, but by choice play in the complete opposite manner and then wonder why neither have done as well as they possibly could've done.

 

I said that Lukaku has no chance of being number one choice and will therefore have to accept being a squad player or move on. You've replied asking why he should accept that choice. To me, that sounds like you think he deserves more than being second or third choice, which would obviously then mean moving Havertz, would it not?

As for Werner's failings  imho, it has next to nothing to do with the way we play. He's had a sackful of very good chances for him to have had a good goal tally this season. The fact that he hasn't scored more has been  due to a lack of composure, terrible ball control, some very close, unlucky offsides and a fair dollop of sheer bad luck.

 

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RDCW   
22 hours ago, paulw66 said:

It's the hope that kills you......

It sure is. Adrian Chiles was quite eloquent on that subject in relation to being a Baggies fan.

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xCELERYx   
33 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

I said that Lukaku has no chance of being number one choice and will therefore have to accept being a squad player or move on. You've replied asking why he should accept that choice. To me, that sounds like you think he deserves more than being second or third choice, which would obviously then mean moving Havertz, would it not?

As for Werner's failings  imho, it has next to nothing to do with the way we play. He's had a sackful of very good chances for him to have had a good goal tally this season. The fact that he hasn't scored more has been  due to a lack of composure, terrible ball control, some very close, unlucky offsides and a fair dollop of sheer bad luck.

 

I was addressing it in more of a general sense. More in the manner of why a player of his general overall stature would accept such a role, maybe I didn't convey that in the best possible way initially. 

Those are all fair enough criticisms regarding Werner, but we also don't play in a manner which puts him in the best possible position to succeed. Then again, that's quite obvious when you compare the difference in how Leipzig utilised him and how we do. His limitations have remained the same across both clubs, they were well known before he had been signed, and outside of the general league differences, one team were able to put him in more areas to succeed. That's not to suggest he'd be getting Leipzig like numbers again here, but I do truly believe he'd have faired a bit better and maybe not had such a hit to his confidence which has dug the hole further. It what it is though, I'd be surprised if he's here next season. Although, I could say that about virtually all of our attack outside of Havertz and Mount.

 

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RDCW   
1 hour ago, xCELERYx said:

Which is a fair question to ask because ultimately having a forward who can do things outside of their general wheelhouse helps add an extra dimension. To a degree he can, but not to the extent that we're seeing Kane do under Conte. He's never going to be that heavily involved in general play. 

That's sort of the beauty with Conte though, he showed similar at Inter Milan with how he used both Lukaku and Laturo Martinez together. He recognised that Lukaku needed to do better with his back to goal so had him work on it intensely at training, which reaped rewards in games where he could isolate his man and pin them back deep. Giving him the ability to either then roll off his man and use his strength to get shot off, or lay it off for an oncoming team mate. This allowed Lukaku to be more than just a striker who had to play face up and give him an extra element. Even though this was quite a publicly known thing to have happened. I think some of it was misinterpreted by those who didn't actually watch Serie A though, because I get the impression quite a few expected his back to goal play to be more "Drogba-like", where he'd hold off two or three defenders or alike. It was never really that sort of back to goal play. 

The way we try to utilise Lukaku though makes it hard to really extract anything out of him, purely because he's often not in the sort of positions where he can't make use of his skills, or isn't getting the sort of service into him that's needed. Admittedly, it hasn't helped that he looks a bit heavier than he did at Inter. Maybe some of that is down to not having a proper pre-season here, I don't know, but it has impacted his movement and speed to a degree.

With that all being said I do believe if that we swapped Lukaku and Kane right now, Lukaku would thrive again under Conte and Kane would look worse and be less effective here. Purely because Conte is a coach who'll look to maximise what he has, where as Tuchel is more about a system structure and having the roles he envisions performed even if it's not to the strength of the player on hand.

Sorry mate, this is utter nonsense. Kane is in a different league from Lukaku in every aspect of the game and would be a huge success here because he is intelligent, diligent and adaptable, none of which Lukaku is, and is a skilful and multifaceted striker, which Lukaku most certainly is not.

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22 hours ago, paulw66 said:

It's the hope that kills you......

We don't need hope. WE ARE CHAMPIONS OF EUROPE. Even if we get knocked out this yea they can't take that away from us!!!! ONLY TEAM FROM LONDON. 

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paulw66   
34 minutes ago, CarefreeMuratcan said:

We don't need hope. WE ARE CHAMPIONS OF EUROPE. Even if we get knocked out this yea they can't take that away from us!!!! ONLY TEAM FROM LONDON. 

I was referring specifically to Timo's form. "just needs a goal / run of form"........

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Just now, paulw66 said:

I was referring specifically to Timo's form. "just needs a goal / run of form"........

I think Soton game will give him the confidence he needed. Real be warned. 

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