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OzzyCFC

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I was angry at Jose for a long time and felt he betrayed us.

I don't believe that anymore.

Jose has just never looked like his heart is at United. I feel now he genuinely wanted to stay here, and was hurt that it ended as it did. He took the United job, because, who wouldn't? Ironically in hindsight taking over there in 2013 would have been better for him IMO.

I pity him now. He needs an all out break from football, rest, recharge, get away from football completely. Then go and educate himself on modern coaching and man-management, learn his lessons from the past few years, and come back refreshed, maybe at a smaller club to begin with.

I almost want him to go for his own health. I do hope he sticks around long enough for us to play them, as it will be a damn sight easier to beat them under him than under a new manager. But he needs to go, he needs a break for his own good.

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Zoowraa   
On 8/20/2018 at 1:34 PM, thevelourfog said:

Replying less to start another tedious argument and more for balance ... Jose (like, for example, Guardiola) has always, so far in his Porto-onwards career at least, been wanted by the clubs with money to throw around, and specifically to coach the players they have and can bring in with that money. That is the relationship between monied clubs and Mourinho, nothing else.

My take on United, for whatever it is worth ...

I remember posting on here when Mata left in January 2014 that one of my main issues with it was just how far away, in terms of players but also in years, Man United were from being a top-tier team again, and that I felt some frustration and sadness with and for Mata for repeating his own personal history in signing for us when we were at a similar point in our arc. I felt it was clear that United were going to be in a lot of trouble (relative to them and their unbelievable success in the 20 years previous, of course) for years once Ferguson left. What remaining top-level players they had were past their prime, and were being sustained by a large crop of 'good enough' squad players, and many of these players were themselves old and nearing the end of contracts. It was clear they needed to replace the entire squad, and that would take years; lots of signings, with some of them inevitably not working out and needing more signings.

I thought United had, back in 2013/2014, a job it was going to be impossible to do well. Looking at their squad now I think they've done an even worse job than could have been expected. Much of the defence is exactly the same and too many of the failed signings are still there.

Any manager is going to be complicit in that, so Mourinho deserves criticism. But I also think he's done reasonable work with what he's inherited; Young and Valencia have become very capable FBs and he's had Rojo look like an actual defender for stretches, some of the bigger-money failures were very quickly shipped out (Depay, Schneiderlin), and players he'd allegedly alienated in the past (Lukaku, Mata) have been vocal in their praise of him.

I think United have the set up that lots of our fans like to moan about us apparently having; an uninterested owner and a money-focused, business sh*t-talker with literally no knowledge or understanding of football calling the shots. The raft of articles a week or so ago, particularly in the Guardian, about United taking a hard line stance on Mourinho's 'moaning' were transparently Woodward aggressively briefing against him. 

Mourinho might be finished at the very top, football might have moved on etc., but I think Woodward is United's major problem and has been for a good while longer than Mourinho has been there. That club could be spending the money necessary to compete again with little difficulty. That they don't is sod-all to do with standing up to Mourinho's moaning and everything to do with the Glazers and profits. I've no doubt they'll get rid of Mourinho soon enough, will replace him and happily make a few big-money, big-name marquee signings. But United will not seriously challenge for a league title again until they properly finish the squad rebuilding work that started in 2013.

The points you raise about Woodward might well be bang on. Question marks have been raised against him for the last 4-5 years now, so very likely something in that. However, I think the job Mourinho has done, for the money he has been given has been very average at best.

I agree with the sentiments that if you are going to give your manager a new contract, then you have to back them when the time lapse between the contract and not backing him is only 7/8 months and 2 of those months with no games played, so I have some sympathy with Mourinho there.

Lets look at his achievements since he has been there in more detail though. When he joined the club the two prized outfield assets were undoubtedly Martial and Rashford, both have gone backwards under his management.They have both probably held their value as players, but that is down to the potential of both players and the consensus in football that both are still very good forwards.Then lets look at who has he actually improved, possibles in Young and Valencia , though I am generally on the fence either way to say he has improved them. I think its more likely that they have maintained a level, but definite improvement on Lingard and Rojo has played well at times, though his style of management was always going to suit a tough versatile like Rojo. It was obvious that the likes of Fellaini and Rojo would fit very well as Mourinho type squad players. I think of those players listed, the only genuie improvement that can be attributed to Mourinho is Lingard.

Now look at who has declined under him, Rashford,Martial,Pogba for sure. Whilst its likely that the likes of Smalling,Jones,Herrera are probably of a very similar level to when he arrived at the club.

Then look at the money he has spent. It can be dressed up a number of ways, but the reality is he has spent a fortune and two years down the line they are no closer to their major rivals now than before he arrived, arguably they are further behind.

Lukaku - Reasonable success but is always going to score goals. His improvement as a player came under Martinez and Koeman to some degree.

Bailly - Reasonable defender but Mourinho don't seem happy with him.

Pogba - Looked a rolls royce at Juve, looked good in WC, looks average under JM

Mkhitarayan - Disastrous signing under him

Lindelof - Zero evidence that he is a £40 million centre half. Disastrous signing under him.

Sanchez - Gone backwards, no strategy behind this signing other than throw big money at a big player and get one over your rival. I don't believe he was ever on their radar as a player they wanted in the months before he was available.Offers zero resale value and can only be justified with instant success in 1-2 season.

Matic - Done ok. Again no resale value and only justification for his signing is instant success in 1-2 seasons.

Fred - Early days for him, needs time but early signs are £60 million looks a hell of a lot for him.

Dalot - Unknown.

I suspect football has evolved and he has not adjusted with it over the last 4-5 years. His style of football is the same now as it was from his days at Porto, but football generally speaking is not played the same now as it was then. The only synopsis that can be made for Mourinho at Utd is key players have gone backwards under him whilst players he has improved is very questionable, other than one. He has been given very large funds, yet his signings on the whole have been very poor. The style of football under his reign is predictably not great to watch and he has won one trophy (the most minor one possible) in his time there so far.

Woodward might be an issue, but far more evidence that points to the issues being the direction of their current manager than Ed Woodward.

 

 

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I don't think anyone can pin Lindelhof on Mourinho , United as a club were after him years before he arrived there they just followed through on their interest regardless.

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Zoowraa   
12 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I don't think anyone can pin Lindelhof on Mourinho , United as a club were after him years before he arrived there they just followed through on their interest regardless.

You may be right. I know the links to him existed before JM was manager, but still think he would have had the option to approve or veto his signing in some capacity.

I can't think of Utd ever really acting in this way ie: signing a player without the managers approval. If anything , recent stories claim the opposite. Mhkitarayan by all accounts was being closely looked at by Utd when LVG was the manager, but LVG vetoed it as he didn't believe he had the attributes to be succesful in English football. Can only presume JM was happy to proceed on that deal.

We may sign a player as a club as he fits a certain criteria, but can't ever recall Utd taking this approach, so he may not have been top of JM's wish list, but I still think he had a voice in any deal for Lindelof.

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1 hour ago, Kezza said:

Did anyone see the meltdown at the press? Still very big on himself. 

Maybe it was his tribute to Aretha Franklin?

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13 hours ago, r.bartlett said:

Can you confirm your clinical expertise please. 

 

Your reading of his behavior is contrasting to mine. His success is historical and becoming more infrequent. His behavior is consistent

 

My expertise is as a layman but my 16 yr marriage to a woman who was sectioned twice during that time brought me into contact with the nhs many many times and with the exception of one doctor I can cheerfully report the rest of them are a bunch of wage stealing work shy shysters. Who couldn't diagnose **** from sugar. 

I suppose I could say anything I felt like here to 'confirm my expertise as a clinician'. An honest but admittedly evasive answer, and the clearest I'd be willing to give on a public forum, is that I work in a profession that involves regular visits and meetings to secure MH wards, a lot of work with community MH services, and lots of time with MH professionals and patients. Clinicians are very reluctant to diagnose anyone with anything specific, that I agree. It was my point. I certainty don't envy what sounds like your very difficult experiences with the NHS! 

I think anyone is perfectly entitled to think Mourinho is an absolute bellend. I feel a bit more, idk, iffy about 'diagnosing' personality disorders from a distance. Bit of a personal bugbear. 

Suppose I'd also say, perhaps as a bit of middle ground between us, that I think being narcissistic and having a narcissist personality disorder are very different things. You can be self-obsessed or self-serving without it being a disorder. 

That's my two cents on the Mourinho/DSM chat though... 

 

Edited by thevelourfog
Typo

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On 28/08/2018 at 8:57 AM, James Prescott said:

I was angry at Jose for a long time and felt he betrayed us.

I don't believe that anymore.

Jose has just never looked like his heart is at United. I feel now he genuinely wanted to stay here, and was hurt that it ended as it did. He took the United job, because, who wouldn't? Ironically in hindsight taking over there in 2013 would have been better for him IMO.

I pity him now. He needs an all out break from football, rest, recharge, get away from football completely. Then go and educate himself on modern coaching and man-management, learn his lessons from the past few years, and come back refreshed, maybe at a smaller club to begin with.

I almost want him to go for his own health. I do hope he sticks around long enough for us to play them, as it will be a damn sight easier to beat them under him than under a new manager. But he needs to go, he needs a break for his own good.

I've said this for years and got attacked every time but my belief remains, JM was 'let go' the first time due to ill health IE he had or was on the verge of a mental breakdown. His behavior after the event (going away and sitting indoors for months) strange ramblings etc seemed to me at least point in that direction. 

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1 hour ago, r.bartlett said:

I've said this for years and got attacked every time but my belief remains, JM was 'let go' the first time due to ill health IE he had or was on the verge of a mental breakdown. His behavior after the event (going away and sitting indoors for months) strange ramblings etc seemed to me at least point in that direction. 

Interesting ... Can't say I've ever heard or seen this said about first time round, but I did wonder and think said as much here that I wondered just how difficult he was finding personal matters (primarily his father's ill health) the second time round. I found a lot of the hounding of him then, mostly by the press, to be in very poor taste.

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JaneB   
On 28 August 2018 at 7:05 AM, r.bartlett said:

and women accuse men of being shallow.. 

 

 

Yep, shallow as a puddle that's me, only interested in good looking players and managers 🙄

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