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Ham   
1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

Thinking about it more....... JT was in exactly the same position. The court said not guilty as couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt. In this instance, the club backed him. 

Now it is a supporter, not a mutli million pound asset, the club throws hin under the bus. 

Yes

51 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

That makes it worse. In the JT case, there was enough evidence to take it to court, and still the club backed him. 

Yes

13 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I generally think of you as the brains of the operation here , a calm thoughtful voice in the madhouse if you like but I'm afraid I disagree.

Raheem Stirling was originally complaining about double standards of the treatment of black players in the media compared to that of white players.

This event was used by the media to deflect their responsibility onto some big mouthed oaf at the football .

The man in point has already lost his job , been interviewed in the media and said he was appalled at his own behaviour on reflection , and categorically denied using racist language.

The club have formally and seemingly without proof branded him a liar and a racist in the worlds media  , to my mind they have completely thrown him to the wolves and I believe they have done it for their own vanity.

I find that despicable .

I would like to think that if I was accused of something I hadn't done it wouldn't been splashed all over the media to make someone else feel good about themselves.

And thrice yes!!!

 

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29 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I generally think of you as the brains of the operation here , a calm thoughtful voice in the madhouse if you like but I'm afraid I disagree.

Raheem Stirling was originally complaining about double standards of the treatment of black players in the media compared to that of white players.

This event was used by the media to deflect their responsibility onto some big mouthed oaf at the football .

The man in point has already lost his job , been interviewed in the media and said he was appalled at his own behaviour on reflection , and categorically denied using racist language.

The club have formally and seemingly without proof branded him a liar and a racist in the worlds media  , to my mind they have completely thrown him to the wolves and I believe they have done it for their own vanity.

I find that despicable .

I would like to think that if I was accused of something I hadn't done it wouldn't been splashed all over the media to make someone else feel good about themselves.

The stuff I've made bold … Lovely compliment, but I think the madhouse should start a recruitment drive if that's the case!

Perhaps I'm drifting into the philosophical too much here, but everything you've said to me speaks of a dilemma that the press but we as bog-standard people very much struggle to resolve; that of doing a bad thing and being a bad thing. Lots of people 'deny' using racist language or being racist because, to be frank, they cannot correctly identify racism. They are, by virtue of their own experiences, unable to see the meaning or impact of their words or views. What makes this so complicated IMO is that lots of people do not recognise racism, but do recognise that racism is wrong and something bad people are. How then can they reconcile the fact that they are and know themselves to be good people with the idea they have been experienced a racist? They can't, so they jettison one of those ideas. We all know which one ...

Good people do racism. Even they have to face the consequences. Maybe this man is one of those good people who did a bad thing. In honesty, you and I don't know. Our choice, our matter of opinion is whether or not we trust the club have made this decision with good reason. I'm willing to trust they have, you aren't. We probably won't sway each other and that's that.

What I will challenge and is not a matter of opinion is the idea that the man in question had been 'cleared' by the police, and misunderstandings of what police, CPS and criminal court procedures mean. 

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42 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The club have formally and seemingly without proof branded him a liar and a racist in the worlds media  , to my mind they have completely thrown him to the wolves and I believe they have done it for their own vanity.

To be fair, the media did that well in advance of anything the club have done.
The club claim they have > 50% proof and I don't see any reason to disagree with that.

And the club are not tieing the banning to any specific incident, it may well be for other occasions found on CTV last season.  Or following non-public complaints from people nearby.  It is quite possible that a person using those terms once, has used other terms on another occasion.  The club rightly should not go into more detail.

3 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Perhaps I'm drifting into the philosophical too much here,

Perhaps I'm not very woke, but I take a different angle on it.  
How would I feel about buying a season ticket right by the goal line only to have the guy behind me screaming "you Manc Cxxx" behind me.  
I'd probably want him gone.  I'd probably write a discreet letter to the club and mention a few times he used other terms.  I might be lying, I might not, but it'd be worth it.  2 or 3 people like me and the club really has no choice.

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chara   

What an interesting and well presented bunch of arguments regarding a very difficult to accept subject.

My small input is that very rarely is any subject..no pun at all..black or white...so many nuances in real life as opposed to agenda run media accounts. 

I spent some nine years in the Caribbean and for much of that time was the only non Island employee and I was not the boss ...when I first got there I thought I was pretty much a liberal non racist thinker but I soon realized I carried many "soft" racists ideas  or rather assumptions  unrecognized by myself. Fortunately I was able to handle that revelation and had a wonderful nine years there without encountering any "racial" issues of any value. (One time only and pm me if you want to know more.)

My point is that too many "agendas" coast along on a "RACIST" chant..the issues are far more complicated than that.

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JaneB   
2 hours ago, chara said:

What an interesting and well presented bunch of arguments regarding a very difficult to accept subject.

My small input is that very rarely is any subject..no pun at all..black or white...so many nuances in real life as opposed to agenda run media accounts. 

I spent some nine years in the Caribbean and for much of that time was the only non Island employee and I was not the boss ...when I first got there I thought I was pretty much a liberal non racist thinker but I soon realized I carried many "soft" racists ideas  or rather assumptions  unrecognized by myself. Fortunately I was able to handle that revelation and had a wonderful nine years there without encountering any "racial" issues of any value. (One time only and pm me if you want to know more.)

My point is that too many "agendas" coast along on a "RACIST" chant..the issues are far more complicated than that.

Yes, very interesting discussion and thanks to those who filled me in on the points I was confused about.

So true Chara on both counts and so well expressed as per usual. 

When all is said and done it's sanctimonious hypocrisy I can't stand.    

Edited by JaneB

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chara   
1 hour ago, JaneB said:

When all is said and done it's sanctimonious hypocrisy I can't stand.    

My point exactly Jane... I probably disliked as many locals as I disliked expat residents..nothing to do with skin shading..a d***h**d is a dh period.For balance I probably had more local friends (real) than expats..ratio of populace helped that I guess.

Very difficult subject to look at with open eyes.

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JaneB   
1 hour ago, chara said:

My point exactly Jane... I probably disliked as many locals as I disliked expat residents..nothing to do with skin shading..a d***h**d is a dh period.For balance I probably had more local friends (real) than expats..ratio of populace helped that I guess.

Very difficult subject to look at with open eyes.

Ha ha indeed!!!

Yes, I have to question myself all the time.

 

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xCELERYx   

All I'm going to say on this is that if you consciously put yourself in a position like this, then you have to be willing to accept the responsibility of whatever blowback is received because of it. 

I can't find myself having any sympathy in this sort of situation. Sure, racial remakes may or may not have been used, but everyone involved were old enough to know better at the end of the day. Don't put yourself into this sort of situation to begin with and you're not going to have a problem. It's pretty fvcking simple. 

Hopefully it serves as a wake up call for others. 

Edited by xCELERYx

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Ham   
23 minutes ago, xCELERYx said:

All I'm going to say on this is that if you consciously put yourself in a position like this, then you have to be willing to accept the responsibility of whatever blowback is received because of it. 

I can't find myself having any sympathy in this sort of situation. Sure, racial remakes may or may not have been used, but everyone involved were old enough to know better at the end of the day. Don't put yourself into this sort of situation to begin with and you're not going to have a problem. It's pretty fvcking simple. 

Hopefully it serves as a wake up call for others. 

It should only be a wake up call to Chelsea fans because nobody else is doing a f***ing thing about such issues as alleviating isms. 

Ask Levy. 

 

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paulw66   
10 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

All I'm going to say on this is that if you consciously put yourself in a position like this, then you have to be willing to accept the responsibility of whatever blowback is received because of it. 

I can't find myself having any sympathy in this sort of situation. Sure, racial remakes may or may not have been used, but everyone involved were old enough to know better at the end of the day. Don't put yourself into this sort of situation to begin with and you're not going to have a problem. It's pretty fvcking simple. 

Hopefully it serves as a wake up call for others. 

You use that as a throw away comment.........if racial remarks were not used, then what is he guilty of?

Don't put yourself in that position? What position is that? Where do you draw the line with this snowflake nonsense..........next time a group of fans sing "you're sh*t and you know you are", is that offensive / derogatory? What about, "the referee's a w@nker"? Ban everybody who sings it? 

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