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chara   
7 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

BLM has nothing to do with actually thinking that black lives matter. If it was, the discussion would not be focused around an isolated incident or statues pre-dating a hundred years to be torn down. I appreciate I'm voicing a minority view here but it is made with the best intentions.  

Personally I think that BLM are setting back the black community a few decades in the US. It's so desperately depressing to see, there are literally hundreds of other issues we need to discuss to help the black community and culture to realise its potential. I suspect the masterminds behind 'the movement' are happy with how it has panned out.  

I'm not so sure yours is such a minority view.....

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13 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

BLM has nothing to do with actually thinking that black lives matter. If it was, the discussion would not be focused around an isolated incident or statues pre-dating a hundred years to be torn down. I appreciate I'm voicing a minority view here but it is made with the best intentions.  

Well obviously - anyone who cared about blacks would be protesting about US treatment of Venezuela.  Anyone who cared about black Americans would be protesting about the prison sentences for crack that are 18 times longer than for cocaine (which is why a black guy is frightened of cops and why cops thing a black guy is going to pull a gun on them).
And that is not mentioning all the piggy backing on the issue.

Related:  Nike have just come out with some very poor profit and sales figures for the first quarter.  It can't all be Covid.  It seems that backing Kaepernik so much hasn't helped.
(and just for the record, Kaepernik is a hero for me, but his protest was passive, the Chelsea players protest is active against the US flag and so just plain ignorant or virtue signalling).

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Jasonb   
11 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

BLM has nothing to do with actually thinking that black lives matter. If it was, the discussion would not be focused around an isolated incident or statues pre-dating a hundred years to be torn down. I appreciate I'm voicing a minority view here but it is made with the best intentions.  

Personally I think that BLM are setting back the black community a few decades in the US. It's so desperately depressing to see, there are literally hundreds of other issues we need to discuss to help the black community and culture to realise its potential. I suspect the masterminds behind 'the movement' are happy with how it has panned out.  

My health has never been great so have looked into this a little more.

Morgan Freeman and Denzil Washington have voiced concerns this group is doing more damage than helping and Washington said the real issue is one parent families with no male role model. Kevin Hurley Ex-Met chief said the same thing about one parent families having children much more likely to offend. He said last year 16 deaths in police custody, only one was black so where was the problem. 

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11 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

BLM has nothing to do with actually thinking that black lives matter. If it was, the discussion would not be focused around an isolated incident or statues pre-dating a hundred years to be torn down. I appreciate I'm voicing a minority view here but it is made with the best intentions.  

Do you honestly think scepticism or even more explicit disagreement with or hostility towards BLM is a 'minority view'? I know your opinions well enough and I think you know mine, so not asking for an argument actually about BLM or any back and forth about the respective merits of our views, but I do find it odd that you'd consider views like yours to be marginal when we have a 87 majority seat Conservative government running on a pro-Brexit ticket and the likes of The Sun and Daily Mail estimating daily readerships in the region of 2.5m people each. A great deal of this country is at least small-c 'conservative' and traditionalist (clumsy words perhaps). 

For my part, what mainstrram 'support' I have seen for BLM, either as a specific group or broader political/philosophical movement, has been very superficial and performative. Maybe we agree on that at least!

Opened the thread as I was curious on people's views on both the media's and the police's treatment of the Anfield celebrations in the context of how both other football fans and other public gatherings have been responded to. It's frankly disgusting imo; that the police actively closed roads to facilitate celebrations and boasted of making no attempts to disperse crowds while more forcefully shutting down 'raves' and 'block parties' with very different demographics elsewhere, and all without an mainstream eyebrows being raised, is a disgrace.

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11 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Anyone who cared about black Americans would be protesting about the prison sentences for crack that are 18 times longer than for cocaine (which is why a black guy is frightened of cops and why cops thing a black guy is going to pull a gun on them).

I'm about two thirds through this book, which I think is currently available for free as an ebook, and might be of interest to you. It's obviously a bit of a polemic in it's take/interpretation/policy suggestions, but lots of empirical data behind it is rock solid. It talks very articulately about US prisons, and the consequences of The War on Drugs and broken window policing. 

https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing

 

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20 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I'm about two thirds through this book, which I think is currently available for free as an ebook, and might be of interest to you. It's obviously a bit of a polemic in it's take/interpretation/policy suggestions, but lots of empirical data behind it is rock solid. It talks very articulately about US prisons, and the consequences of The War on Drugs and broken window policing. 

https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing

I have a massive stack in my "to read" column.  It seems obvious though. 
Think of a near future sci-fi Netflix drama.  Call it Black Mirror.  The punishment for coke goes up by 18x to equal that of crack (chemically the same stuff).  Police are incentivised to target white potential users because they get sentences of up to 10 years.  The kids that paid their way through a mostly white college by dealing coke suddenly get stopped by police once a day instead of never.  An occasional user who has been caught twice gets pulled over by a cop in his car and faces a 3rd strike and 25.  1 empty wrapper in his glove compartment and a handgun.  And imagine the cop pulling him over knowing what might happen.
Pretty soon 5% of all white males are in prison (which is 12% of potential fathers aged 20-50), rich bankers too.  Single parents become the norm as a) it is hard for any woman to find a man who hasn't done time in side, and b) any single male not inside is having a great time unmarried.
Truth is though for poor American whites (and there are loads) life is already a bit like this.

Perhaps because both my parents were Police (they met at Chelsea nick) I have a natural sympathy for cops who are forced to take risks (or more likely it is just having been a Hill Street Blues addict).  But drug laws and gun laws seem to be the main cause.

20 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Morgan Freeman and Denzil Washington have voiced concerns this group is doing more damage than helping and Washington said the real issue is one parent families with no male role model. Kevin Hurley Ex-Met chief said the same thing about one parent families having children much more likely to offend. He said last year 16 deaths in police custody, only one was black so where was the problem. 

Morgan Freeman has also said ""for 241 years our democracy has been a shining example of what we can all aspire to."
Imagine a black man saying that.  I guess he takes the paychecks.

The UK is very different.  sensible gun laws, less stupid drug laws.  Though still the biggest issues Police issues are around drugs where the lowest status people (generally recent immigrants) take the high risk jobs of supplying drugs to the rich whites.

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Ham   
44 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Do you honestly think scepticism or even more explicit disagreement with or hostility towards BLM is a 'minority view'? I know your opinions well enough and I think you know mine, so not asking for an argument actually about BLM or any back and forth about the respective merits of our views, but I do find it odd that you'd consider views like yours to be marginal when we have a 87 majority seat Conservative government running on a pro-Brexit ticket and the likes of The Sun and Daily Mail estimating daily readerships in the region of 2.5m people each. A great deal of this country is at least small-c 'conservative' and traditionalist (clumsy words perhaps). 

For my part, what mainstrram 'support' I have seen for BLM, either as a specific group or broader political/philosophical movement, has been very superficial and performative. Maybe we agree on that at least!

Opened the thread as I was curious on people's views on both the media's and the police's treatment of the Anfield celebrations in the context of how both other football fans and other public gatherings have been responded to. It's frankly disgusting imo; that the police actively closed roads to facilitate celebrations and boasted of making no attempts to disperse crowds while more forcefully shutting down 'raves' and 'block parties' with very different demographics elsewhere, and all without an mainstream eyebrows being raised, is a disgrace.

You're confusing supporting an anarchist political group with supporting equality for black people. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ham said:

You're confusing supporting an anarchist political group with supporting equality for black people. 

I'm not, but thanks for your input.

  • Haha 1

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Ham   
Just now, thevelourfog said:

I'm not, but thanks for your input.

Then why did you go on to make comparisons with Brexiteers, Daily Mail and Sun readers etc? 

You CAN champion equality whilst opposing BLM as a movement. 

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7 minutes ago, Ham said:

You're confusing supporting an anarchist political group with supporting equality for black people. 

My interpretation is that you are confusing an anarchist political group with the mainstream US party whose "leader" is 10% up in the polls for the next Presidential election.

Which I suppose means we all (me included) define the BLM movement as we chose  rather than a whole mixture of groups and opinions with little or no common themes.  Like Brexit (and Remain) it has become a substitute for a lot of issues people feel angry about.

Edited by Droy was my hero

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