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Holymoly   
18 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

I think Le Tiss was juggling too many and dropped one.  He responded to tweets and ended up revealing a position I think he would have preferred not to have mentioned.  He is now very much in a lose/lose position when he next appears on TV.  If he had ever been a manager he'd know enough to never answer direct questions.  
He has my sympathies.

I tend to agree with you on this one.

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4 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

Surely you’d know when you’ve actually been racist

That would really worry me - if I had been outright racist and I knew it.  
But I daresay I have been racist and not known it.  That sounds probable.

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

Just as my own musing, I find the 'defund police' thing interesting. It's been lifted directly from the US organisation/movement where it is incredibly relevant but frankly does not travel well in my view. US police forces are, to my mind, terrifyingly militarised and omnipresent. They are literally given military surplus weaponry; it sounds like dystopia fiction but it is not uncommon for school-based officers to be armed as if they have been deployed in downtown Basra. In the UK I think the issue is much more that our police are asked to undertake far too many non-law enforcement activities that they are poorly equipped and trained for, and where really better results would be achieved by greater funding to different services (e.g. police often acting as the first line of mental health intervention).

10 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

Secondly, it’s not a relevant discussion to defund the US police. Quite the contrary actually. The reason they are more heavily armed then the UK police should be self-explanatory. 

I'm not sure that "defund the police" is even relevant in US.  Relevant is drugs laws and excessive sentencing leading to minor criminals thinking about 25 years when they get stopped by a cop and cops thinking this guy is going to pull a gun.  Everything else pales into insignificance really.  Issues with Police started in the mid 80s when a crack explosion lead to 100x  (18x since 2010) the punishment for crack possession compared to cocaine, and the numbers of blacks in prison when up from proportionate to whites to 5X.

Frankly I am amazed that anyone is talking about anything but drug laws, gun laws and sentencing, not least because these 3 are fundamentally racist laws.  The behaviour of Police offices (black and white) is all a result of this, not a cause.  

The difference between US cops and UK cops is actually quite subtle.  Most of Europe has similar gun laws to UK and similar violence levels but they almost all carry weapons as a matter of course.  TVF is right, much of British policing is about social work, and would be carried out by officers with a different Uniform in some European countries.  US mental health sufferers, assuming they don't have very full health insurance, are expected to self-medicate.....
I have heard experts say that a big issue with US police is their policies of protecting Police lives at all costs.  In other words shoot first.  They are trained to take no risks.  This does protect police lives, but it ups the victim numbers (criminal and collateral) a lot.  I think this is true.

2 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

They are literally given military surplus weaponry;

Yes, but it isn't as much as one might think and the program includes much more mundane things like ammunition and medical equipment. (I started in enthusiasm on this point, but a bit of research - Leso program - shows it to be small beer).

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Holymoly   

All of the "ism" arguments, racisim, sexism, ageism, classism etc end up creating the exact environment they purport to be trying to avoid. Be it race, religion, sex, nationality, whatever, the more you seek to empower by positive discrimination the more you end up driving wedges through society by highlighting difference. You create ghettos of similarity where people feel free to express themselves without fear of offending others. Rather than concentrating on difference surely mankind should be encouraged to think of their fellow human beings as being the same as one another.

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Very funny - the BLM statement on Palestine is probably the one thing that has been said recently that was accurate and protested against racist treatment of a minority.
Sky have dropped the BLM badges because of it.  (They pretend Patrick Evra lead the way - I bet he gets a bonus for that)

Ignorant virtue signalling all the way.  100% phoney and I am ashamed that Chelsea ever took part in it.

https://www.101greatgoals.com/news/blm-badges-dropped-from-brighton-vs-man-united-on-sky-sports-due-to-comments-on-israel-defunding-police/

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1 hour ago, Droy was my hero said:

Frankly I am amazed that anyone is talking about anything but drug laws, gun laws and sentencing, not least because these 3 are fundamentally racist laws.  The behaviour of Police offices (black and white) is all a result of this, not a cause.  

This I would agree with, I guess there's just lots to talk about and lots of it inter-related. Some laws, here or in the US or anywhere else, disproportionately criminalise groups of people well before you even consider the values or beliefs of those applying (or not) them. 

I had the same thoughts RE: the BLM statement on Palestine, although have to confess I've not seen the statement itself and only the coverage. As I've said a few times in this thread, almost all popular BLM support has been about PR and PR only. That isn't of itself a bad thing; good PR can go a long way. It can also disappear quickly.

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6 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Some laws, here or in the US or anywhere else, disproportionately criminalise groups of people well before you even consider the values or beliefs of those applying (or not) them. 

Drug laws were explicitly racist even when they were debated in Congress (not just in 1980s treating crack 100x more severely than cocaine, but all previous drug and alcohol laws were targeted at Black communities).  Black prisoners rose by 5X just in time for the mid-90s introduction of 3 strikes.  
Guns laws weren't explicitly racist, the second amendment was meant to allow non-slaves to control slaves of any colour.
 

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chara   
On ‎29‎/‎06‎/‎2020 at 9:37 AM, Mark Kelly said:

 

Let me give you all a closer view of "policing" here...in my County it is a Sheriffs Dept...they have dealt with land argument issues..buffalo pushed onto another ranchers property and river bank damaged ..a nasty murder just below us ..Asian drug related is the word..young girl burnt to death..mountain lion attack near us..local deputy killed during a foreclosure issue...not your average PC Dixon stuff..in "Town" and even the next county a totally different set of issues..and sorry Droy the gun laws are very tough but not applied..an inner city kid with an illegal handgun is totally different from most up here who have firearms for different reasons.I sold guns for ten years and know exactly how that works..I refused maybe 10 sales because it was not right and my word was IT..no argument from any management. Denials were rare and most appeals were a rescinding due to "errors". It's not the Wild West in most of America ..big city stuff is mainly gang related and just check the real statistics on police shootings re black/white...Oh and when stopped on the road all real people make sure the officer can see their hands..like look left look right to cross a road.....

Military equipment..please....put on camo doesn't make you Special Forces...if the equipment works for the job it's just that ..gear....

This is a huge country and every state is different..different dynamics and issues..no one size fits all....in Park County a local vote agreed extra tax to help the Law Enforcement..hardly an anti police policy...the latest troubles are politically driven and if anyone wants more info please pm me

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chara   

PS..sorry Mark...top bit nothing to do with you!..messed up on previous post I deleted!

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6 minutes ago, chara said:

PS..sorry Mark...top bit nothing to do with you!..messed up on previous post I deleted!

No worries my friend! 

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paulw66   
4 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Very funny - the BLM statement on Palestine is probably the one thing that has been said recently that was accurate and protested against racist treatment of a minority.
Sky have dropped the BLM badges because of it.  (They pretend Patrick Evra lead the way - I bet he gets a bonus for that)

Ignorant virtue signalling all the way.  100% phoney and I am ashamed that Chelsea ever took part in it.

https://www.101greatgoals.com/news/blm-badges-dropped-from-brighton-vs-man-united-on-sky-sports-due-to-comments-on-israel-defunding-police/

Was there any choice? Imagine being the only club not to. Which in itself, makes the whole thing pointless. 

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