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35 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Was there any choice? Imagine being the only club not to. Which in itself, makes the whole thing pointless. 

We were the second club after ignorant virtue signallers supremo, Liverpool.  By the time our first match came along I agree, the meaning had changed and it meant nothing.  But I don't think more than 2 or 3 clubs did it before the Prem restarted.
 

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9 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

1) Your first paragraph ... I guess some times you'd know. But then even plenty of people who are very openly, unambiguously racist will tell you they're not because they understand, mindfully or otherwise, the baggage that comes with it as a label. I remember watching a documentary following a self-styled 'modern' KKK grand wizard in his day to day years ago. He was convinced he and the KKK weren't racist because he enjoyed "black cooking". And I don't think we always 'know' in a very mindful, conscious and immediate way why it is we think and behave the way we do; pretty much all neurological research would suggest we very rarely, if in fact ever, do. As for what impact are actions have had on others ... Also not necessarily an easy thing to know. So no, I don't think it's a certainty you'd know. I also don't think that view is an especially left-leaning one; it could easily lend itself to traditionally right-leaning ways of organising government, society etc.

2)Second point, disagreed. Not at all obvious to me why a domestic police force needs military grade armoury. I don't envisage either of us changing the other's mind on this point. 

1) My point was that if you are racist you know it deep down (unless you're an absolute tool with no self-awareness. I don't count you in that lot, you'd know when you've been racist. 

2) 300m guns plus floating around in the US. Huge problem which virtually forces the US police to keep up. 

8 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

That would really worry me - if I had been outright racist and I knew it.  
But I daresay I have been racist and not known it.  That sounds probable.

I'm not sure that "defund the police" is even relevant in US.  Relevant is drugs laws and excessive sentencing leading to minor criminals thinking about 25 years when they get stopped by a cop and cops thinking this guy is going to pull a gun.  Everything else pales into insignificance really.  Issues with Police started in the mid 80s when a crack explosion lead to 100x  (18x since 2010) the punishment for crack possession compared to cocaine, and the numbers of blacks in prison when up from proportionate to whites to 5X.

Frankly I am amazed that anyone is talking about anything but drug laws, gun laws and sentencing, not least because these 3 are fundamentally racist laws.  The behaviour of Police offices (black and white) is all a result of this, not a cause.  

The difference between US cops and UK cops is actually quite subtle.  Most of Europe has similar gun laws to UK and similar violence levels but they almost all carry weapons as a matter of course.  TVF is right, much of British policing is about social work, and would be carried out by officers with a different Uniform in some European countries.  US mental health sufferers, assuming they don't have very full health insurance, are expected to self-medicate.....
I have heard experts say that a big issue with US police is their policies of protecting Police lives at all costs.  In other words shoot first.  They are trained to take no risks.  This does protect police lives, but it ups the victim numbers (criminal and collateral) a lot.  I think this is true.

Yes, but it isn't as much as one might think and the program includes much more mundane things like ammunition and medical equipment. (I started in enthusiasm on this point, but a bit of research - Leso program - shows it to be small beer).

Agreed. Gun laws, drug laws and sentencing in the US is a huge, huge problem. Drug laws is probably a massive problem everywhere apart from Portugal and a few more countires. 

But that's what you get when you are interpreting laws from the 1700's literally and have privately owned prisons where private persons can profit from locking people up. It's a sick system for sure. 

8 hours ago, Holymoly said:

All of the "ism" arguments, racisim, sexism, ageism, classism etc end up creating the exact environment they purport to be trying to avoid. Be it race, religion, sex, nationality, whatever, the more you seek to empower by positive discrimination the more you end up driving wedges through society by highlighting difference. You create ghettos of similarity where people feel free to express themselves without fear of offending others. Rather than concentrating on difference surely mankind should be encouraged to think of their fellow human beings as being the same as one another.

Agreed. 

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chara   

Ok guys...tell me what the gun laws are over here........

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2 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

Agreed. Gun laws, drug laws and sentencing in the US is a huge, huge problem. Drug laws is probably a massive problem everywhere apart from Portugal and a few more countires. 

No drug laws are not the same anywhere else because no where else punishes crack use at 18 times the rate of cocaine use.

For those that can afford cocaine, it is a risk free habit in the US because the dealer size is so high and no cop is interested in smaller amounts.  For those that can't, crack is a big prison risk because the dealer size is small and cops will be out to catch users to punish them as dealers.
 

2 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

But that's what you get when you are interpreting laws from the 1700's literally and have privately owned prisons where private persons can profit from locking people up. It's a sick system for sure. 

Yes.  The Kids for Cash scandal seems to have had little coverage over here (Jane don't google it - you don't want to know).  I don't believe in evil as a concept, but

1 hour ago, chara said:

Ok guys...tell me what the gun laws are over here........

Bloody text editor here - I just lost a long reply.
but in short as the Ghost says there are 300m guns in US.  In some states if you are not a minor and have no record you can buy a hand gun.  Guns can be carried concealed on the street.  Illegal possession with a clean record is a $500 fine.
Moreover with so many guns, buying second hand guns illegally is easy.

Chara could you go out tomorrow and acquire a hand gun?

Is there anyone on this forum in the UK who has a clue how to acquire a handgun in the next month?

When the French President visits UK his bodyguards are not allowed to be armed, UK police accompany them.
There is only one exception to the rule - US diplomats.

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paulw66   
8 hours ago, Ham said:

Hilarious isn't it? Everyone jumped on the bang wagon, virtue signalling to the world..........then someone had the bright idea to actually look at what the organistion stands for..........too late, already got the tattoo. 

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18 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Hilarious isn't it? Everyone jumped on the bang wagon, virtue signalling to the world..........then someone had the bright idea to actually look at what the organistion stands for..........too late, already got the tattoo. 

Funny isn't it, that's where the emphasis on Political correctness has got us, all jumping on a bandwagon scared that they will be vilified then jumping off it once they realise it wasnt quite as noble as they thought.

Regarding it being hijacked it makes me think of Liverpools J96 thing which I'm sure originally was about the poor families of the deceased but ended up being a campaign to get the powers that be to absolve Liverpool supporters of any blame whatsoever.

 

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10 hours ago, Ham said:

And the BLM on the player backs has turned into a discreet badge on the shoulder which is now lower profile than the NHS chest badge.  Player names have returned.  (Surely Kante should have Ngolo on his back if Alonso has Marcus A.)

2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Hilarious isn't it? Everyone jumped on the bang wagon, virtue signalling to the world..........then someone had the bright idea to actually look at what the organistion stands for..........too late, already got the tattoo. 

BLM stands for nothing - it is 3 black lesbians with a hashtag.  It is an organisation in the same way that #metoo is an organisation or the Gilets Jaunes are an organisation.  BLM is affiliated to a much bigger organisation,  Movement for Black Lives, which came out of the Ferguson protests back in 2014 and has $100m funding from groups including the Ford Foundation.
Under the BLM banner there are a whole host of groups from very mild and reasonable, to wholly left wing political but perfectly reasonable for that, to violent anti fascist groups, to corrupt mainstream politicians trying to take credit and to a mass of BBC/SKy/media  virtue signallers for whom this is precisely the same as the countryside alliance.

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Stim   

That name on the back thing was only for the first round of games. It was gone before we even played city

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chara   
19 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

No drug laws are not the same anywhere else because no where else punishes crack use at 18 times the rate of cocaine use.

For those that can afford cocaine, it is a risk free habit in the US because the dealer size is so high and no cop is interested in smaller amounts.  For those that can't, crack is a big prison risk because the dealer size is small and cops will be out to catch users to punish them as dealers.
 

Yes.  The Kids for Cash scandal seems to have had little coverage over here (Jane don't google it - you don't want to know).  I don't believe in evil as a concept, but

Bloody text editor here - I just lost a long reply.
but in short as the Ghost says there are 300m guns in US.  In some states if you are not a minor and have no record you can buy a hand gun.  Guns can be carried concealed on the street.  Illegal possession with a clean record is a $500 fine.
Moreover with so many guns, buying second hand guns illegally is easy.

Chara could you go out tomorrow and acquire a hand gun?

Is there anyone on this forum in the UK who has a clue how to acquire a handgun in the next month?

When the French President visits UK his bodyguards are not allowed to be armed, UK police accompany them.
There is only one exception to the rule - US diplomats.

OK Droy..yep I could go out and buy any legal firearm today..IN COLORADO...with my Colorado ID..all States are different...because I have a clean Colorado and National record for the mandatory back ground check.... it's not the laws that are wrong..millions of law abiding gun owners  go through all the hoops to purchase a firearm...do you really think any person who is forbidden by law to buy a gun actually follows the system?...too lenient approach to gun violations but if I screw up with a hunting offence I lose all privileges...I'm a bird hunter and dog handler..my firearm needs are different from a target shooter or a big game hunter or home protection..I live in a rural county...the shotgun I have close at hand is for the unlikely but possible threat from a bear/lion or rabid critter ..the last being most probable...teenage girl from church a while back had to deal with a rampaging bear in her garage and a young boy was attacked by a lion in our community last year..made International news.....don't confuse inner and not so inner city gun violence with the majority of law abiding citizens. Thats the rub..media sensationalism and often lack of knowledge by a reporter...there is a problem of course..but it is part of the issues being ..again..misreported by the media..I could go on and elaborate on the laws but only wanted to undo the mainly over simplistic views from UK..and I don't mean you Droy..you do look into things..

Concealed carry is different in each State..I can carry a handgun openly in Colorado..without concealed carry permit I have to have it visible..I don't have a hand gun..to quote a friend during a somewhat fraught confrontation in New Mexico,,,I was passenger with handgun under seat..close to Mexican border and 5 miles or so off the nearest (dirt) road ..after "incident" was over the conversation ended with.."..any way you are s**t with a hand gun"..me,,"Not from two feet!"...long way from Fulham Broadway!!! 

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