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9 hours ago, paulw66 said:

In some cases, yes, but black is dark, and is generally depressing. There is a reason your living room walls are not painted all black and it's not because of social construct; it would make you depressed. It's gloomy. The point about higher suicide rates in Scandanavia is not a social construct. The dark (black) is not upbeat.

And in the case of the second bolded bit, I would asky why? As you say in your post, these things have nothing to do with race or racism, so what's the issue?

Put it another way - is not saying blacklisted, blackballed, black mark etc, etc going to prevent anyone becoming a racist or reform a racist into a non racist? No. So it's an utterly pointless, futile, virtue signalling heap of dung, and will only serve to get people's back up about how ridiclous the world has become, and will end up causing more racial divide (much like the whole BLM movement) than if we just left things alone. 

First bit, I fundamentally disagree. On your example ... Firstly, I don't know that it is actually the case that Scandinavian countries have higher suicide rates than elsewhere in the world. I'd only ever heard of that in terms of it being a myth despite being widely believed, and a quick Google suggests there's no statistical basis to it. Indeed, the study in this BBC article that popped up suggests the top 5 "happiest" (whatever that means and however they measured it) countries in the world in 2017 were Scandinavian/Nordic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-39331314

Secondly, a high suicide rate is again often about social constructs. Notions and often even the legislation around what is and is not classified as a suicide are different across the world. Some countries have systems in which coroners will give a verdict of suicide on very little evidence, others insist on a suicide note. Others have no or a weak system for deciding in the first place. A Swedish coroner might return a different verdict to an English one if both looked at the same death.

The example you give does nothing to evidence the idea that any colour has an inherent, universal meaning.

Second bit, I already explained why. What harm does it do to try and avoid using the word "black" as a synonym for "bad"? None. What reason would you have to absolutely insist on it? I don't agree it's pointless or futile, and don't think you're right at all about the cumulative affect on people of lots of very small, in isolation insignificant, things. But that doesn't strike me as something worth us debating further. We each have our views and that's fine.

Edited by thevelourfog
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Ham   

Not sure anyone is going to convince burglars and vampires to start wearing bright colours at night so it's difficult to disassociate black with bad in all respects.

 

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On 09/09/2020 at 11:06 AM, Sciatika said:

The weird thing is that the first use of nitty-gritty is in the mid-20th century to a song title. There is no evidence that it has anything to do with slavery. The world is becoming more and more Orwellian: "Don't you see that the whole aim of newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end, we shall make thoughtcrime impossible because there will be no words in which to express it".

It’s been a steady pace towards 1984 for a good 20-30 years now. Each year becomes just a little bit more tedious and ludicrous. 
 

On 09/09/2020 at 1:06 PM, paulw66 said:

Because black is a dark colour, and looks "bad" (not in the context of skin colour). 

A dark room is scarier than a well lit one, a plate of black food doesn't look appetising, a room decorated with black paint or black wallpaper would be depressing. If you wanted to be cheered up, you don't surround yourself with the colour black. We wear black in mourning, because it is a somber colour, not because of anything racist. Countries in scandanavia have high suicide rates, which is attributed to less sunlight - eg there is more darkness (black). The colour black is generally associated with darkness, and dark = bad, light = good. 

White is a clear, clean colour..........which is why we write on white paper because it is easy to see, easy on the eye. It is why you are more likely to see white in people's homes. White is lighter = happier.  

None of this is "racist"..........it just pure asthetics. Like red is danger. 

Exactly. There is a very good reason you won’t find many rooms with black walls, black ceiling and black floors. 

 

23 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

The example you give does nothing to evidence the idea that any colour has an inherent, universal meaning.

Meaning? Paul is talking about how colours makes you feel. That’s is scientifically proven that different colours affect us differently. 

Can’t for the life of me understand why you would even argue against that? Why don’t you paint all floors, walls and ceilings in your house black and keep it like that for a year? Then we talk again after that? Deal? 

We’ve been down this route before, but I can’t bear another topic where we discuss how utterly ridiculous the post-modernists are so let’s leave that aside. 

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11 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

Meaning? Paul is talking about how colours makes you feel. That’s is scientifically proven that different colours affect us differently. 

Excellent explanation of why we need to be careful about our choice of words in a mixed colour society.
 

11 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

It’s been a steady pace towards 1984 for a good 20-30 years now. Each year becomes just a little bit more tedious and ludicrous. 

Well much much longer than that.  In the 60s I remember being told not to use the phrase blimey or cor blimey (and no one does nowadays).  If I were older I'm sure they'd be loads of other changes I could mention.

People learn, change language usage, and language evolves.  Mostly for the good.  Why would anyone want to fight that?

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31 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

Meaning? Paul is talking about how colours makes you feel. That’s is scientifically proven that different colours affect us differently.

Can’t for the life of me understand why you would even argue against that? Why don’t you paint all floors, walls and ceilings in your house black and keep it like that for a year? Then we talk again after that? Deal? 

We’ve been down this route before, but I can’t bear another topic where we discuss how utterly ridiculous the post-modernists are so let’s leave that aside. 

Bit weird that last line; you can't act like you're above a discussion when you actively prolong it.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but how I entered into discussion with @paulw66 was to dispute the idea that the colour black has the same meaning to everyone, and that meaning is a negative one. Not to dispute that he or many others might find it depressing.

I think it's pretty clear that's the case, odd challenges to redecorate my bedroom aside. Feel free to assert that black has one single universally recognised meaning that no one deviates from if you want to take an actual position, though.

Edited by thevelourfog

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22 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

Excellent explanation of why we need to be careful about our choice of words in a mixed colour society.

Hadn't even spotted that. 

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chara   
23 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

Excellent explanation of why we need to be careful about our choice of words in a mixed colour society.
 

Well much much longer than that.  In the 60s I remember being told not to use the phrase blimey or cor blimey (and no one does nowadays).  If I were older I'm sure they'd be loads of other changes I could mention.

People learn, change language usage, and language evolves.  Mostly for the good.  Why would anyone want to fight that?

As I said earlier it always is polite to think before you speak if possible.

The last line....the evolving of language etc is fine and has always been part of the fabric of society but the concern now is the blatant manipulation and limiting of freedom of expression.

In nine years or so in the Caribbean I was on the receiving end of many a bad comment and many digs...I recall no racist element in nearly all that time...when I was being a D^^^hd and called to task it had nothing to do with ethnicity and normal day to day windups again were not perceived by me as racist..annoying at times but that is what a windup is!...and try handling the Windies hammering England...but on the other hand the joy of the payback.....a lot like working with Arse fans etc.

Good post Droy.

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37 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

Excellent explanation of why we need to be careful about our choice of words in a mixed colour society.

How so? Have you actually ever laid eyes on a black person? I’d think no cause I have never seen a person that is actually black. I’ve seen various shades of pink to beige, light brown to very dark brown. But never black. 

So why people get hung up on black seems to be the easiest way yet to just change no? Let’s just ban any words that involves pink, beige and various shades of brown and we’re done :) 

22 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Feel free to assert that black has one single universally recognised meaning that no one deviates from if you want to take an actual position, though.

 I simply say that colours make us feel differently. It’s the loonies that attribute the colours to a made up “race”. If you lot stopped doing that, the battle would be won 🤷🏻‍♂️

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2 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

How so? Have you actually ever laid eyes on a black person? I’d think no cause I have never seen a person that is actually black. I’ve seen various shades of pink to beige, light brown to very dark brown. But never black. 

I take it this is now a joke.  You are saying "blackball" isn't actually racist because dark skinned people have co-opted the word for themselves.  

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JaneB   

Can we get back to footie please?

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