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28 minutes ago, blue moon said:

Excellent performance, SFL. Win on pens is always suboptimal, but it’ll do

Surprised he didn't bring himself on after 119 mins to take one of the pens.

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19 hours ago, PeteRobbo said:

Sorry Ham, you're quite right of course, it was Fillery's post that I replied to, my mistake and I apologise for that.

 But to reply to all of you en masse,  my point was that basically whenever our fans, (and of course we have plenty of scum for sure), are linked with anything negative then there's more or less wholehearted cries of foul all round. Whereas, in total contrast, whenever there's anything linked with Liverpool fans then there's pretty much a blanket reaction of "typical scouse" etc etc, without any pause for thought it would seem to me.

There are many on here who point out how we're treated significantly differently than anyone else by the media. Perhaps we are, but many, if not all of those who do so are guilty of the same thing themselves when talking about others.

In answer to your question, I like to think that I would be able to admit that some of our fans were culpable by climbing walls/forcing or trying to gates to get in. If just one extra (ticketless )fan gets in it is a factor however minor. In the case of 100 or 200 that's less minor and may well have saved a life or lives had they not been there. I can admit we do have an element of right wing support who are very capable of being racist that said I am not convinced either the paris tube thing or the recent Sterling thing were examples of that. We are being singled out by those with a grudge.

I know a neutral (York) fan who was there that day and walked round the back of that end to get to his seat in the main stand and there were not several thousand sober choirboys waiting patiently to get in whatever the media want us to believe. Don't get me wrong it was terrible and however many extra bods there were in there no one deserves to die at a match and the police screwed up massively and then tried to cover it up. But...to categorically state no supporters were responsible (even partly) is obviously not technically correct. But it keeps the more militant elements quiet.

 

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1 minute ago, fillerywhereru said:

In answer to your question, I like to think that I would be able to admit that some of our fans were culpable by climbing walls/forcing or trying to gates to get in. If just one extra (ticketless )fan gets in it is a factor however minor. In the case of 100 or 200 that's less minor and may well have saved a life or lives had they not been there. I can admit we do have an element of right wing support who are very capable of being racist that said I am not convinced either the paris tube thing or the recent Sterling thing were examples of that. We are being singled out by those with a grudge.

I know a neutral (York) fan who was there that day and walked round the back of that end to get to his seat in the main stand and there were not several thousand sober choirboys waiting patiently to get in whatever the media want us to believe. Don't get me wrong it was terrible and however many extra bods there were in there no one deserves to die at a match and the police screwed up massively and then tried to cover it up. But...to categorically state no supporters were responsible (even partly) is obviously not technically correct. But it keeps the more militant elements quiet.

 

Fair enough, thank you Fillery.

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paulw66   
3 minutes ago, fillerywhereru said:

In answer to your question, I like to think that I would be able to admit that some of our fans were culpable by climbing walls/forcing or trying to gates to get in. If just one extra (ticketless )fan gets in it is a factor however minor. In the case of 100 or 200 that's less minor and may well have saved a life or lives had they not been there. I can admit we do have an element of right wing support who are very capable of being racist that said I am not convinced either the paris tube thing or the recent Sterling thing were examples of that. We are being singled out by those with a grudge.

I know a neutral (York) fan who was there that day and walked round the back of that end to get to his seat in the main stand and there were not several thousand sober choirboys waiting patiently to get in whatever the media want us to believe. Don't get me wrong it was terrible and however many extra bods there were in there no one deserves to die at a match and the police screwed up massively and then tried to cover it up. But...to categorically state no supporters were responsible (even partly) is obviously not technically correct. But it keeps the more militant elements quiet.

 

This is of course, the sensible summary. 

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On 16/01/2019 at 5:15 PM, paulw66 said:

There have been plenty of accounts of fans witnessing Liverpool scallys trying into grounds for free since too. Crystal Palace and Istanbul are two that spring to mind. 

Every time I’ve seen Liverpool at the Bridge they’ve had fans trying to get in without tickets. Every time. 

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15 minutes ago, Ham said:

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/17/hillsborough-trial-police-chief-unfairly-singled-out-court-told?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

 

Today's defence evidence very much matches what has been discussed in recent days....... Freakishly so. 

It was ALWAYS the case that the police made mistakes, that the FA made mistakes, that Sheffield Wednesday FC made mistakes... and that some, if not many, Liverpool fans also contributed to the events that day. To try and pin the blame on one man like this is absolutely disgusting. Things like Hillsborough don't happen because of just one thing, but a convergence of many things happening together.

Football hooliganism (of which Liverpool fans cannot be absolved) led to fans being penned in at most grounds. Crumbling stadia and lack of H&S legislation at the time contributed. Fans getting drunk and staying in the pub until the last minute, rather than getting there sober and ahead of time contributed. Confused communication between stewards, police outside the ground and police inside contributed... and so on, and so on.

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14 hours ago, Bob Singleton said:

It was ALWAYS the case that the police made mistakes, that the FA made mistakes, that Sheffield Wednesday FC made mistakes... and that some, if not many, Liverpool fans also contributed to the events that day. To try and pin the blame on one man like this is absolutely disgusting. Things like Hillsborough don't happen because of just one thing, but a convergence of many things happening together.

Football hooliganism (of which Liverpool fans cannot be absolved) led to fans being penned in at most grounds. Crumbling stadia and lack of H&S legislation at the time contributed. Fans getting drunk and staying in the pub until the last minute, rather than getting there sober and ahead of time contributed. Confused communication between stewards, police outside the ground and police inside contributed... and so on, and so on.

Absolutely, I don't think anybody is trying to say Liverpool fans were totally responsible. It is the statement that they have been absolved of any blame that grates as you know it isn't totally true. It was 1989 and a football crowd, in fact the year doesnt matter, people still go to the pub drink beer an push and shove when trying to get into events. To say the whole thing happened because one man opened a gate is simply not true. Had people slowly moved in or stopped when they realised they wernt moving forward into the ground it would not have happened probably. But people dont do that, no set of fans would do that they want to see the match of course. Some are more aggressive than others by nature but all want to view the match, its why they are there. The problem comes from a set of peoples aim to pin the blame on the police and them alone, the motive seems to absolve the fans from any kind of responsibility however small. Of course it's not a nice thought that they may be somehow responsible for the deaths of their own, so I understand their touchiness but if you are going to dish out blame to all parties any ticketless fans whatever the figure are partially responsible. To pin the whole thing on one police chief does not bring the dead back for the families but it will be a convenient scapegoat and assist those that wish not to consider that any fans were perhaps partially culpable.

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Ham   
48 minutes ago, fillerywhereru said:

Absolutely, I don't think anybody is trying to say Liverpool fans were totally responsible. It is the statement that they have been absolved of any blame that grates as you know it isn't totally true. It was 1989 and a football crowd, in fact the year doesnt matter, people still go to the pub drink beer an push and shove when trying to get into events. To say the whole thing happened because one man opened a gate is simply not true. Had people slowly moved in or stopped when they realised they wernt moving forward into the ground it would not have happened probably. But people dont do that, no set of fans would do that they want to see the match of course. Some are more aggressive than others by nature but all want to view the match, its why they are there. The problem comes from a set of peoples aim to pin the blame on the police and them alone, the motive seems to absolve the fans from any kind of responsibility however small. Of course it's not a nice thought that they may be somehow responsible for the deaths of their own, so I understand their touchiness but if you are going to dish out blame to all parties any ticketless fans whatever the figure are partially responsible. To pin the whole thing on one police chief does not bring the dead back for the families but it will be a convenient scapegoat and assist those that wish not to consider that any fans were perhaps partially culpable.

The mere sight of hundreds going over the roof of the turnstile block confirms all of the above. 

If you read the decision made previously it was a nonsense. 

They checked the blood/alcohol level of the deceased and concluded that excessive alcohol was not a factor in the disaster.

That's like saying that the pedestrian victim of a hit and run had not been drinking and so the driver can't have been either. 

 

Edited by Ham

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