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Ham   
3 hours ago, Lump Of Celery said:

This appears to be aimed at Spurs fans. We come out of this well as a club actually doing something whilst Spurs only appear interested in giving their 90% gentile fanbase the right to sing "Being a y*d". 

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5 hours ago, Ham said:

This appears to be aimed at Spurs fans. We come out of this well as a club actually doing something whilst Spurs only appear interested in giving their 90% gentile fanbase the right to sing "Being a y*d". 

I was so flabbergasted by the Spurs comments I just posted the link not knowing what else to say. That article was a precursor for a programme which was aired earlier, if you thought we came out the first article well read this, Spurs (and others) cba to attend.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11725058/fans-confused-over-antisemitism-ivor-baddiel-tells-sky-sports-tackling-racism-panel

Although they still manage to infer we are a racist club. I wonder what, if any, initiatives Spurs have taken to actually tackle anti semitism, sounds like we are in fact the flag bearers -

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2019/05/20/chelsea-chief-executive-guy-laurence-discusses-fight-against-antisemitism?cardIndex=0-0

 

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Ham   
42 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

I was so flabbergasted by the Spurs comments I just posted the link not knowing what else to say. That article was a precursor for a programme which was aired earlier, if you thought we came out the first article well read this, Spurs (and others) cba to attend.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11725058/fans-confused-over-antisemitism-ivor-baddiel-tells-sky-sports-tackling-racism-panel

Although they still manage to infer we are a racist club. I wonder what, if any, initiatives Spurs have taken to actually tackle anti semitism, sounds like we are in fact the flag bearers -

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2019/05/20/chelsea-chief-executive-guy-laurence-discusses-fight-against-antisemitism?cardIndex=0-0

 

Sadly, and after reading these links, I fear that programme was a waste of time because they have completely misunderstood the entire issue. Typical of the lip service paid to issues by Sky Sports. 

There is no confusion on whether "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" is anti Semitic. What a ridiculous comment by Ivor Baddiel.  

No, you idiot, the confusion is whether it is anti Semitic per se to address a group of mainly gentiles who collectively call themselves "Y*ds" that same word if you personally have absolutely no issue with Jews or Judaism. 

 

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7 hours ago, Ham said:

Sadly, and after reading these links, I fear that programme was a waste of time because they have completely misunderstood the entire issue. Typical of the lip service paid to issues by Sky Sports. 

There is no confusion on whether "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" is anti Semitic. What a ridiculous comment by Ivor Baddiel.  

No, you idiot, the confusion is whether it is anti Semitic per se to address a group of mainly gentiles who collectively call themselves "Y*ds" that same word if you personally have absolutely no issue with Jews or Judaism. 

There's no confusion either way; the 'on their way to Auschwitz' chant is anti-semitic regardless of what anyone singing realises or doesn't realise it relates to, and using the 'y' word is anti-semitic no matter who the person using it thinks they are addressing. This counts for any and all football supporters.

The 'confusion', if there is any, is exactly around the idea that anti-semitism, or indeed any form of racism or bigotry, is a matter primarily of what we personally think or intend. Baddiel makes that point quite well. Of course there are some people who are anti-semitic or racist in a quite purposeful, self-aware way, and those people (without wanting to get to philosophical about what 'choice' even means) knowingly chose to act out their views. There is a much larger number of people who are (again, using broadly and wanting to steer away from philosophy!) are 'good', who do not deliberately, knowingly or maliciously hold anti-semitic or racist views but who somewhat unwittingly reproduce racism in their actions anyway because reproducing racism has come to look normal. This is exactly the kind of anti-semitism that using the 'Y' word is for all but a more malicious minority.

A broader point maybe than Chelsea, Tottenham and the 'Y' word, but I have little hope for a better world while people maintain an assocation between 'being or have done anti-semitism/racism' and 'being a bad person'. It's an attitude that puts up walls, makes people defensive, makes them (espeically Spurs fans) do ever more ridiculous mental gymnastics to justify an obviously unreasonable position. If we could hold in our minds the ideas that we are not bad people but have done a bad thing, we'd be much more able to figure out how to not do bad things anymore. That is why I admire Chelsea FC's public position on this, it's willingness to say it has a problem and to do something about it, and that it is why I think as supporters we need to do the same.

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Sciatika   

The key point in those articles was, to me, this:

Quote

The Y word and its use in football, including by Tottenham fans as a response to it being used against them, was also debated.

‘It creates confusion,’ said Laurence. ‘We take guidance from the World Jewish Council and the Board of Deputies and they have said it is offensive, so as far as we are concerned it is offensive. That is the policy that we reflect in the terms and conditions at Stamford Bridge and we will continue to do so. Tottenham have taken a different view.’

 

I am not a Jew. As a gentile, to know what is offensive I have to seek guidance on what offends Jews and that has to involve consulting those authorities that Jews, in general, choose to speak for them. If the WJC and BOD say that it is offensive to use these terms (and the other behaviour described), that that should be good enough for all of us, Jew and Gentile alike. Nothing that anyone says will make it less offensive to, at least, some Jews. It cannot be justified on the basis that you can appropriate someone else's identity because non-Jews have no right to do that and cannot be given a right by proxy, so to speak. The use of the word is offensive. So we have to conclude that they are happy to condone offensive behaviour and that, by not acting, the relevant authorities (the FA, the Police, the CPS) collude in it.

Worse, it legitimises the use of abusive terms. Let's say we (as CFC fans) decided to use the word "rentboy" as a badge - to appropriate it to describe ourselves. By doing that, we are legitimising the use of the term in our own circles despite it being offensive to some. And we create an environment where people outside can argue that they can use the term because we do. More, we back those in our group that it offends into a corner because it means that they have to accept the use of the term if they want to be included in the group. I wonder how many Jews among Spurs fans would prefer that the term were no longer used but feel they have to stay silent on the subject.

Edited by Sciatika
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synavm   
On 5/21/2019 at 0:42 AM, Ham said:

Sadly, and after reading these links, I fear that programme was a waste of time because they have completely misunderstood the entire issue. Typical of the lip service paid to issues by Sky Sports. 

There is no confusion on whether "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" is anti Semitic. What a ridiculous comment by Ivor Baddiel.  

No, you idiot, the confusion is whether it is anti Semitic per se to address a group of mainly gentiles who collectively call themselves "Y*ds" that same word if you personally have absolutely no issue with Jews or Judaism. 

 

 

That argument doesn't stand up.

Dr Dre calls himself and his mates the N word in his music. If I were to call him that, it wouldn't change the fact it is a racial slur rooted in total hatred and would be a totally inappropriate term to use. 

Baddiel is spot on, Spurs using the Y word as an identity opens up the door to tribal hatred blurring across into race/ethnicity. We need to continue getting our house in order and Spurs need to start. Their statement is unacceptable.  

 

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2 hours ago, synavm said:

 

That argument doesn't stand up.

Dr Dre calls himself and his mates the N word in his music. If I were to call him that, it wouldn't change the fact it is a racial slur rooted in total hatred and would be a totally inappropriate term to use. 

Baddiel is spot on, Spurs using the Y word as an identity opens up the door to tribal hatred blurring across into race/ethnicity. We need to continue getting our house in order and Spurs need to start. Their statement is unacceptable.  

 

Regarding the Dr Dre example, he and his buddies are in fact black. Most of the Spurs fans aren’t Jewish. 

So the example would be more like Chelsea fans calling themselves the N-word and opposition fans singing “**** the N-word”. 

A pretty different situation. 

Regardless, the increasing hatred towards Jews in Europe has nothing to do with white football going males. There’s another group who’s responsible for that but I don’t expect people or the wider society to try to fix that unfortunately. 

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On 21/05/2019 at 9:22 AM, Sciatika said:

The key point in those articles was, to me, this:

I am not a Jew. As a gentile, to know what is offensive I have to seek guidance on what offends Jews and that has to involve consulting those authorities that Jews, in general, choose to speak for them. If the WJC and BOD say that it is offensive to use these terms (and the other behaviour described), that that should be good enough for all of us, Jew and Gentile alike. Nothing that anyone says will make it less offensive to, at least, some Jews. It cannot be justified on the basis that you can appropriate someone else's identity because non-Jews have no right to do that and cannot be given a right by proxy, so to speak. The use of the word is offensive. So we have to conclude that they are happy to condone offensive behaviour and that, by not acting, the relevant authorities (the FA, the Police, the CPS) collude in it.

Worse, it legitimises the use of abusive terms. Let's say we (as CFC fans) decided to use the word "rentboy" as a badge - to appropriate it to describe ourselves. By doing that, we are legitimising the use of the term in our own circles despite it being offensive to some. And we create an environment where people outside can argue that they can use the term because we do. More, we back those in our group that it offends into a corner because it means that they have to accept the use of the term if they want to be included in the group. I wonder how many Jews among Spurs fans would prefer that the term were no longer used but feel they have to stay silent on the subject.

A very cogent argument Sci and an elegant phrasing of it.

Chapeau and all that!

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The Guardian report today on a West Ham fan being convicted of racially abusing Son.

They include the following:

Quote
Quote

Racism has blighted English football this season. In December a Chelsea fan was accused of aiming racial abuse at Manchester City’s Raheem Sterling at Stamford Bridge, which he denied,

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/may/22/west-ham-fan-fined-racially-abusing-son-heung-min-tottenham

They obviously didn't have the space to write that lip reading experts told the police and the CPS "they believed Mr Wing had shouted "Manc c***" not "black c***"."

Edited by Backbiter

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