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Jose Mourinho Sacked For The Second Time by Chelsea. Joins Manchester United.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, zaffo said:

We were never going to go 3 at the back from the start. Anyone that's followed Conte knew his preferred formation is indeed the 424 he utilised successfully at Bari and Siena. Just as he did at Juventus, he looked to utilise it here from the beginning, particularly in pre-season, before changing to 352/343 after the Arsenal game. Doing this also allowed him to assess some of our players who did poorly last season and see how they would a) respond, and b) be worth keeping around. The other upside to this was it allowed both Conte and the players more time to be tactically trained and brought up to speed, given how intensely tactical Conte's system can be. 

Also worth noting that Alonso's first league game was coming off the bench in the Arsenal fixture, while Luiz's was the previous game against Liverpool. Alonso hadn't played much at all prior to that with essentially a month between his last game for Fiorentina and his first game in the League Cup for us against Leicester. Another reason why 342 wasn't viable from the beginning.

Just so happened that Arsenal game was the end of the straw. Chances were given, certain individuals continued to underperform and the change was made. The rest as they say is history. 

I had no doubts about Conte's ability, I'd seen it all before with Juventus and what he done. I think those who had reservations were the ones who likely seen little of him as a manager beyond his exploits at the Euro's and the couple games he had against us with Juventus a number of years ago. I think had he been a more reputable manager (outside of Italy), there would have been less concerns. That unknown factor I sense worried a section of fans.

 

 

The point of my post wasn't really to hash over old arguments about whether his change to a back three could have been done sooner....I think we've had that argument many times before. The point was to indicate when I'd been supportive of Conte and when I hadn't because my name had been brought up in relation to that. I am also pretty sick and tired of some posters (not you) who think that if you have been appreciative of Mourinho's football achievements at this club, you have no right be appreciative of what Conte is doing. The accusation being that you would revel and enjoy Conte failing and then dance in the street should Mourinho win the title. This is insulting, ignorant and inflammatory and the reason why this thread has so often degenerated into a slanging match. Whilst I agree that he can be annoying to us when managing another team, we rather liked it when he was on our side annoying the opposition fans (well I did anyway). And sections of our crowd telling him to "feck off" when he visits here is hardly going to stop him having a sly dig at us when he can squeeze one in...it's a self for-filling prophesy we are creating.

However you have managed to drag me into the old formation argument, so I will say this. Your tactical knowledge of the game far exceeds mine which is why I always read your posts with interest and try to absorb certain points you make. You also have a good knowledge of Conte and Italian football  which most on here don't. But I feel I am on pretty solid ground here and feel you are overly protecting Conte from criticism. I don't think the timing of the switch was all part of a timed master plan. 

Conte should and could have made the switch sooner. Maybe not the first few games of the season while we were finding our feet but certainly sooner than he did. He has admitted that he worked on the new system in close season (without Alonso and Luiz). So whether he was a 4-2-4 merchant at Juve or not this system was in his thoughts. Ivanovic was stinking out the joint at RB and was only very marginally better than the disaster he was the season before, yet here he was week in week out. Even before the Liverpool and Arsenal games many of us were predicting the wheels were about to come off. I think it was Dave that even suggested Moses as WB before it even happened. 

I can't tell you Zaffo the exact point he should have changed it because I can't remember exactly how each of those early games went, or when Luiz and Alonso were fit and ready. The only thing I can say with 100% certainty is that he should and could have done it before the Arsenal game. I say this because he didn't make the switch after that game (as you said) but during it. Are you telling me that the system wasn't quite ready before the Arsenal game but it was suddenly fit for purpose at half time? It wasn't just the lost points- losing to Liverpool and Arsenal in such a manor was incredibly painful and you will never ever convince me that the results and the performance wouldn't have improved if he had implemented the system changes before those games. 

I said at the time that if we lose the title or fourth place by 2 points we will regret those two games. As it happened it was irrelevant (although painful at the time). Conte does deserve fantastic credit for what happened after this point. He is a brilliant manager in my mind (but not infallible). I would also put Mourinho in that category. We have been blessed.   

Edited by NoblyBobly

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Posted (edited)

On 2017-5-29 at 10:04 AM, Mark Kelly said:

He's taking about you.

Nobbly expressed some worry at the beginning which is who you are talking about.

You on the other hand , didn't want him from the beginning gave him absolutely no credit throughout the thirteen game win streak (equalling the record) , turning yourself into a "standing in the wrong place" meme in the process , pontificating that managers make no difference whatsoever and then dancing the Mexican hat dance when Mourinho won the Europa league.

He's talking about you.

You were wrong about Conte , Voted manager of the year by his peers , from the off as he steered the club to the record of most wins in a season , in his very first year in English football , whilst the glamour boys , Guardiola , Mourinho , Klopp and Pochettino floundered in his wake.

You were wrong when he identified Alonso as a wing back and wrong when he converted Moses too.

He's talking about you.

Still , every cloud , Mourinho won the treble.

 

Comedy gold Mark,I had a very good chuckle at that - and now Mourhino is blaming  Edward Woodward( did he not play the equalizer?)  if they don't sign Greizmann.

Edited by kev61

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18 hours ago, NoblyBobly said:

The point of my post wasn't really to hash over old arguments about whether his change to a back three could have been done sooner....I think we've had that argument many times before. The point was to indicate when I'd been supportive of Conte and when I hadn't because my name had been brought up in relation to that. I am also pretty sick and tired of some posters (not you) who think that if you have been appreciative of Mourinho's football achievements at this club, you have no right be appreciative of what Conte is doing. The accusation being that you would revel and enjoy Conte failing and then dance in the street should Mourinho win the title. This is insulting, ignorant and inflammatory and the reason why this thread has so often degenerated into a slanging match. Whilst I agree that he can be annoying to us when managing another team, we rather liked it when he was on our side annoying the opposition fans (well I did anyway). And sections of our crowd telling him to "feck off" when he visits here is hardly going to stop him having a sly dig at us when he can squeeze one in...it's a self for-filling prophesy we are creating.

However you have managed to drag me into the old formation argument, so I will say this. Your tactical knowledge of the game far exceeds mine which is why I always read your posts with interest and try to absorb certain points you make. You also have a good knowledge of Conte and Italian football  which most on here don't. But I feel I am on pretty solid ground here and feel you are overly protecting Conte from criticism. I don't think the timing of the switch was all part of a timed master plan. 

Conte should and could have made the switch sooner. Maybe not the first few games of the season while we were finding our feet but certainly sooner than he did. He has admitted that he worked on the new system in close season (without Alonso and Luiz). So whether he was a 4-2-4 merchant at Juve or not this system was in his thoughts. Ivanovic was stinking out the joint at RB and was only very marginally better than the disaster he was the season before, yet here he was week in week out. Even before the Liverpool and Arsenal games many of us were predicting the wheels were about to come off. I think it was Dave that even suggested Moses as WB before it even happened. 

I can't tell you Zaffo the exact point he should have changed it because I can't remember exactly how each of those early games went, or when Luiz and Alonso were fit and ready. The only thing I can say with 100% certainty is that he should and could have done it before the Arsenal game. I say this because he didn't make the switch after that game (as you said) but during it. Are you telling me that the system wasn't quite ready before the Arsenal game but it was suddenly fit for purpose at half time? It wasn't just the lost points- losing to Liverpool and Arsenal in such a manor was incredibly painful and you will never ever convince me that the results and the performance wouldn't have improved if he had implemented the system changes before those games. 

I said at the time that if we lose the title or fourth place by 2 points we will regret those two games. As it happened it was irrelevant (although painful at the time). Conte does deserve fantastic credit for what happened after this point. He is a brilliant manager in my mind (but not infallible). I would also put Mourinho in that category. We have been blessed.   

My point was not to rehash an old argument either Nobly, but to in fact clarify and provide some prospective as to why Conte didn't (and even couldn't) initially set us up in a 343 from the very beginning. Irrespective of which system Conte prefers, going the route he did was what fitted our squad the best at the time - given we've largely been built around a 4321 for years. So, not only was it a better way to utilise our squad, it also allowed for some of the players who did have a poor season prior to step up and impress the new manager - not an uncommon occurrence.

The other side to this to keep in mind is that the Liverpool game was the 5th game of the league season. In the 4 games prior to that our CB options included; Cahill, Terry and Ivanovic - I believe Zouma was still out at this point. So, we had 3 fit CB options total. While we had no LWB's at all, Azpi was still being played at LB at this point. As you can see, the personnel wasn't there either to play 343 from the beginning. David Luiz arrived and played his first game against Liverpool, with Alonso getting his first action off the bench in the next game (6th of the season) against Arsenal - remember also Alonso hadn't played football for a month prior to joining so needed to build fitness first.

Could Conte have gone into the Arsenal game with a 343? In theory, sure, he could have. But it would have been a lower percentage move at the time given the squad circumstances on hand. My guess is that he felt the players weren't quite where they needed to be yet to implement such a drastic change. Now, we know what performance was provided to us in that first half. And this is where I guess Conte's felt that "it can't get much worse, so let's see what happens" sort of deal.. He made the change, utilised Alonso for his debut and we looked better, although it was evident much work was still needed. There was enough encouraging signs to head into that Hull game with the 343 from the beginning, while likely to have been greater focus during training sessions prior on this new shape. The rest unfolded as it did from there. 

For me, he made the right choices based on the circumstances at the time. Does that mean Conte's gotten everything right? Not at all. There's aspects that I've not agreed with also, but his handling of the above I think made perfect sense once the bigger picture is assessed. Of course, it all matters little now being Champions and all. :)

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Good post Zaffo. Pretty much as I see it.

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Thanks for your detailed post which as usual is intelligent and reasoned, but I still think you are putting a slightly different spin on that crucial early part of the season to the way I see it. I maintain he could and should have changed earlier. And more than anything he could and should have dropped Ivanovic at the very start of the season (without changing the system). He could have checked the vids for the previous season, seen it first hand in pre season and seen it again (if he really needed to ) in our first few prem games and EPL games. For me it is not a coincidence that our great run started once he had gone....a combination of this player dropped and a new system.

It looks like we are rehashing this argument which seems a bit silly seeing as we are champions and clearly have the best manager in the league but I will make these points. 

I just had a quick at our fixtures for last season. We has 6 preseason games and 7 games proper before Arsenal game. I include  cup games because these are just the sort of games to try out a new system. The Hull game was the first game he played 3 at the back over 90 mins. That was his 15th game in charge! So when could he have experimented? Well certainly in the league cup game against Leicester in between Liverpool and Arsenal fixtures...what an opportunity.  But a little look at the system could have taken place in our pre season fixtures. 

That pre season was a bit dodgy. We won three and lost three. You surely must agree that even if we didn't have the ideal personnel, if 3-4-3 was in his mind for this season, playing 45 mins in one of these games with a back 3 might have been illuminating? I'll give you examples of the possible 3 he could have tried earlier (and yes I think Ivanovic could have played ok in a back 3).

  Dave- Terry- Cahill

  Ivanovic-.Cahill- Dave

  Dave -Terry- Ake (or Dave - Ake- Terry)

 Ivanovic- Ake- Dave 

 Ivanovic- Terry- Dave

 Ivanovic- cahill- Terry

I'm pretty sure we have subsequently used at least one of these systems this season. I also recall a fit Alonso spending an awful lot of time on the bench when we could have played a back four of Dave Terry Cahill  Alonso . Many of us at the time time were saying "why has he bothered spending good money on a proper left back to sit him on the bench".

Now we can point at our PL trophy and say "who cares" and actually I don't now, but that was an unpleasant worrying 14 games for me. It could have been vital but in the end it wasn't.

 

 

    

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On 29/05/2017 at 6:58 PM, Sleeping Dave said:

I'm sorry but this is absolute bs. There was ONE poster who was critical of Conte from the start. 

Virtually everyone else wanted and accepted that he should be given ample time to make his mark. 

I was going to let this go as quite a bit of traffic has flowed since my exchange with nobly but when I posted about not having to look back too far I meant matts post about one or two posters preferring Mourinho succeeding more than Chelsea,which you responded to I notice. I stand by what I posted and as for the line about a happy family? That Ship sailed a long time ago.look at the title of the topic ffs.

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18 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

Thanks for your detailed post which as usual is intelligent and reasoned, but I still think you are putting a slightly different spin on that crucial early part of the season to the way I see it. I maintain he could and should have changed earlier. And more than anything he could and should have dropped Ivanovic at the very start of the season (without changing the system). He could have checked the vids for the previous season, seen it first hand in pre season and seen it again (if he really needed to ) in our first few prem games and EPL games. For me it is not a coincidence that our great run started once he had gone....a combination of this player dropped and a new system.

It looks like we are rehashing this argument which seems a bit silly seeing as we are champions and clearly have the best manager in the league but I will make these points. 

I just had a quick at our fixtures for last season. We has 6 preseason games and 7 games proper before Arsenal game. I include  cup games because these are just the sort of games to try out a new system. The Hull game was the first game he played 3 at the back over 90 mins. That was his 15th game in charge! So when could he have experimented? Well certainly in the league cup game against Leicester in between Liverpool and Arsenal fixtures...what an opportunity.  But a little look at the system could have taken place in our pre season fixtures. 

That pre season was a bit dodgy. We won three and lost three. You surely must agree that even if we didn't have the ideal personnel, if 3-4-3 was in his mind for this season, playing 45 mins in one of these games with a back 3 might have been illuminating? I'll give you examples of the possible 3 he could have tried earlier (and yes I think Ivanovic could have played ok in a back 3).

  Dave- Terry- Cahill

  Ivanovic-.Cahill- Dave

  Dave -Terry- Ake (or Dave - Ake- Terry)

 Ivanovic- Ake- Dave 

 Ivanovic- Terry- Dave

 Ivanovic- cahill- Terry

I'm pretty sure we have subsequently used at least one of these systems this season. I also recall a fit Alonso spending an awful lot of time on the bench when we could have played a back four of Dave Terry Cahill  Alonso . Many of us at the time time were saying "why has he bothered spending good money on a proper left back to sit him on the bench".

Now we can point at our PL trophy and say "who cares" and actually I don't now, but that was an unpleasant worrying 14 games for me. It could have been vital but in the end it wasn't.

Say if he dropped Ivanovic who'd then have played RB, Aina? And if you're going to use the reasoning that Conte could have looked back on the previous season etc then surely it would just about apply to every player besides Willian? No one played well. A few were equally as questionable with their future as Ivanovic was. Can't apply the rule to one without the other. Hence why it's only fair (and logical) for a new manager to start with a clean slate and assess what he has to work with personally, which is exactly what Conte did. The difference being that he had the foresight to make the change once he knew it wasn't going to work long term. Fact of the matter is he made do with the best of what he had. At least until he was able to bring in Luiz and Alonso, which essentially gave him the ability to switch to 343 at any point, an option he didn't previously have. Something that he didn't waste time doing, given the timing of when both players became available for selection.

This pre-season was largely based around fitness and getting clued up tactically. No surprise's when the player themselves have spoken about how much both areas were focused on - particularly the heavy demand in being tactically assure when it comes to execution. Trying to change a teams shape while implementing an entirely different tactical system was always going to take time. Trying to do it all at once would have been an absolute train wreck because of the stark difference between Conte's approach, and that which majority of our players had been accustomed too under previous management. I'm sure at one point Conte had ambitions to play 343/352 eventually, gradual change rather than complete upheaval was a more sensible choice.

Nobly, if you honestly believe any of those back three combinations had a hope in hell at being successful, you're incredibly optimistic. Makes me cringe just reading them on paper, let alone having to witness it on the pitch (thankfully that never happened). Even if you did go with one of those line up's, we'd still have had problems elsewhere because its pulled players from other positions that were already thin as it was - and that's not even addressing the WB situations. I think you're clutching at straws with that one, sorry to say. 

Did you miss the part where I said Alonso wasn't fit? Because you're creating a situation that wasn't feasible for logical reasons, despite I having previously explained why this couldn't have happened and why he was unavailable. There was a 3 week gap between his last game for Fiorentina and then his first (League Cup) game with us. He played 90 minutes that game and then we had Arsenal 4 days later. There was no way he was ever going to play both.

14 games? Only 6 were deemed important though. Again, I think you're underestimating the situation No point playing any system when the players on hand aren't able to accommodate it because of a lack of viable depth. You wouldn't play 3 upfront if you only had 1 striker on the books, or 442 if you had no wingers. Just as you wouldn't play 343 without enough (or the right type of) CB's or any WB options (Moses aside, since he was later converted). 

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26 minutes ago, kennypaul said:

I was going to let this go as quite a bit of traffic has flowed since my exchange with nobly but when I posted about not having to look back too far I meant matts post about one or two posters preferring Mourinho succeeding more than Chelsea,which you responded to I notice. I stand by what I posted and as for the line about a happy family? That Ship sailed a long time ago.look at the title of the topic ffs.

Not really sure what you are responding to tbh... I can only identify one poster who was critical of Conte from the start. Virtually everyone else was supportive. 

Now if you disagree, maybe show my why?

Not sure if the quoted post above was even intended to me? 

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14 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Not really sure what you are responding to tbh... I can only identify one poster who was critical of Conte from the start. Virtually everyone else was supportive. 

Now if you disagree, maybe show my why?

Not sure if the quoted post above was even intended to me? 

Look on page 1190 at the bottom you responded to chelsea_matt. I was referring (way back now) to him and what he posted not about how many people were or weren't in Conte's corner. I don't do sagas or feuds so this is my last post on the subject.

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On 28 May 2017 at 4:07 AM, kennypaul said:

I'm glad you underlined if Nobly.To suggest that Chelsea fans prefer Mourinho to our club is not my intention however the vitriol the board received and subsequently Conte also after only a handful of games was stupid and insulting. If you look through this topic ,and not that far back I might add you will see that it has been implied by others. There will always be some that will pine away for Mourinho like the first time he was sacked, but when things go well for him and poorly for us some on here seem to revel in it. 

So what vitriol did Conte receive is my question? 

The answer is none (apart from one poster and maybe two more who were critical in a worried way). 

I feel posts like this are wide off the mark. 

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