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Zoowraa   

Your argument is somewhat flawed. Almost of all those players were loaned out at least once. Coquelin was playing for Charlton early on last season and got his chance due to there being nobody else at Arsenal capable of playing DM.

Kane didn't get a kick until the Europa league got going and got his chance because Soldado and Adebayor are so inept.

It's a lot easier to be 'braver' when the players in your first team are mediocre.

Your kind of missing my point. It does not really matter how they got their chance,fact is they did.

The fact some these players were loaned out before they got their chance is also irrelevant and I'm not making any point in respect of this. Loans are what they are, some work out and some don't. Too many read the success of a loan as black and white. For example, Player A failed at Watford so he is not going to make it here. That's just a nonsense.

The way our youth has been brought up to play, I'm fairly certain they would shine morein the Premier League than the Championship for a loan. The PL is less physical than the Championship, you also have more time on the ball and the ball is on the ground far more and you are also playing with better players around you.

So as you have highlighted, Coquelin and Kane are both examples of players who made no impact at Championship level, yet suddenly they look far more comfortable at PL level, due to a number of reasons I have said and them having some confidence and I come back to it again.......BEING GIVEN A CHANCE

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Your kind of missing my point. It does not really matter how they got their chance,fact is they did.

The fact some these players were loaned out before they got their chance is also irrelevant and I'm not making any point in respect of this. Loans are what they are, some work out and some don't. Too many read the success of a loan as black and white. For example, Player A failed at Watford so he is not going to make it here. That's just a nonsense.

The way our youth has been brought up to play, I'm fairly certain they would shine morein the Premier League than the Championship for a loan. The PL is less physical than the Championship, you also have more time on the ball and the ball is on the ground far more and you are also playing with better players around you.

So as you have highlighted, Coquelin and Kane are both examples of players who made no impact at Championship level, yet suddenly they look far more comfortable at PL level, due to a number of reasons I have said and them having some confidence and I come back to it again.......BEING GIVEN A CHANCE

And a chance should mean 2 or 3 games without being pulled off after an hour, the trouble is Jose hasn't got the balls to try it, he would rather play fabregas for nearly every game for 90 minutes even though everyone else can see he's out on his feet and needs a rest, because he doesn't trust the younger players

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Your kind of missing my point. It does not really matter how they got their chance,fact is they did.

...

So as you have highlighted, Coquelin and Kane are both examples of players who made no impact at Championship level, yet suddenly they look far more comfortable at PL level, due to a number of reasons I have said and them having some confidence and I come back to it again.......BEING GIVEN A CHANCE

Only quoted the start and end to save space ... You simply cannot deny that how young players get a chance is important. It is very convenient for your adopted position to ignore how it is those two players can to have 'chances'. I'd be surprised if anyone disagreed that both got their 'chances' because the senior players ahead of them were not of that requisite standard. That is not a good thing for a club to be able to say about itself. In fact, it's a bloody terrible thing. Senior players not being absolutely nowhere near good enough is a problem we have only very rarely had in the last decade; it's habitual for the vast majority of clubs.

It's a weird tautology here ... The poster below you moans about 'chances' being more than a few cup starts or the dying minutes of won games. Fact is, especially under Mourinho, that even senior players have had limited (untaken) 'chances' and been moved on quickly. It's not about kids. It's about players being good enough.

I sometimes think the two very different kinds of kid Ferguson brought through are conflated. That golden generation of Giggs, Beckham, Neville etc emerged in a different era of football and alongside some very seasoned professionals. That side looks like an outlier now; an exception and not a rule because that many kids coming through is almost unheard of at top level anywhere. Barca are the only other club I can think of to manage it in 30-odd years and even they're all about spending now. What Ferguson did afterwards was given pretty average PL players the odd start while surrounded by 10 elite footballers with another 3 or 4 great players on the bench, before moving them on Sunderland or Everton. Sure, we could do that. But I'm not personally desperate for that, and besides we'd need the senior squad that Ferguson always made sure he had to even contemplate it.

Edited by thevelourfog

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The way our youth has been brought up to play, I'm fairly certain they would shine morein the Premier League than the Championship for a loan. The PL is less physical than the Championship, you also have more time on the ball and the ball is on the ground far more and you are also playing with better players around you.

So as you have highlighted, Coquelin and Kane are both examples of players who made no impact at Championship level, yet suddenly they look far more comfortable at PL level, due to a number of reasons I have said and them having some confidence and I come back to it again.......BEING GIVEN A CHANCE

Actually the PL is far more athletic than the Championship, PL opponents give you less time but PL players find more than in the championship, and PL players bring the ball down to the ground a lot more comfortably. Yes all the players around are a lot better - especially the opponents. There is no real difference in the style of play between the PL and Championship, just the ability of the players to exectute it well.

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I admit I'm a bit concerned we're not really being strongly linked to anyone with any real weight, apart from Falcao.

Normally the club get their business done relatively quickly and efficiently. I;m sure they have their targets and are working on them but I do hope we start to make some moves soon. I'm getting tired of speculation, I'd like us to make some concrete, quality signings.

Jose said he wanted a striker, midfielder and defender - plus replacements for anyone who left. Falcao looks like the striker, and as Cech is leaving we'll need a keeper to replace him, which means at least four signings. My hunch is RLC will be given a chance to replace Mikel in the squad before we go out and buy anyone. And I do think Traore will join the squad this season, which may mean we are waiting to see how he does in pre-season before buying another winger.

The defender will be one of the most fascinating ones for me. If Luis leaves, do we buy a LB to replace him and another defender? Or is it one defender whether Luis leaves or not? I'm hoping Stones comes in there, whether it's this summer or next.

Just hope the club get things sorted soon.

I know it's only one game but did you see Stones the other night for the u21's? It was one of the most inept defensive performances I gave seen. Let's face it defending is Everton's acchilies heel..

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Zoowraa   

Actually the PL is far more athletic than the Championship, PL opponents give you less time but PL players find more than in the championship, and PL players bring the ball down to the ground a lot more comfortably. Yes all the players around are a lot better - especially the opponents. There is no real difference in the style of play between the PL and Championship, just the ability of the players to exectute it well.

I agree with parts of this. The PL is more athletic and clearly has players who can execute touch,skill,passing more than the Championship.

I don't agree you get less time in the PL though, I believe you actually get more time on the ball and if we take a midfielder for example, they will have more touches of the ball than at Championship level.

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Zoowraa   

Only quoted the start and end to save space ... You simply cannot deny that how young players get a chance is important. It is very convenient for your adopted position to ignore how it is those two players can to have 'chances'. I'd be surprised if anyone disagreed that both got their 'chances' because the senior players ahead of them were not of that requisite standard. That is not a good thing for a club to be able to say about itself. In fact, it's a bloody terrible thing. Senior players not being absolutely nowhere near good enough is a problem we have only very rarely had in the last decade; it's habitual for the vast majority of clubs.

It's a weird tautology here ... The poster below you moans about 'chances' being more than a few cup starts or the dying minutes of won games. Fact is, especially under Mourinho, that even senior players have had limited (untaken) 'chances' and been moved on quickly. It's not about kids. It's about players being good enough.

I sometimes think the two very different kinds of kid Ferguson brought through are conflated. That golden generation of Giggs, Beckham, Neville etc emerged in a different era of football and alongside some very seasoned professionals. That side looks like an outlier now; an exception and not a rule because that many kids coming through is almost unheard of at top level anywhere. Barca are the only other club I can think of to manage it in 30-odd years and even they're all about spending now. What Ferguson did afterwards was given pretty average PL players the odd start while surrounded by 10 elite footballers with another 3 or 4 great players on the bench, before moving them on Sunderland or Everton. Sure, we could do that. But I'm not personally desperate for that, and besides we'd need the senior squad that Ferguson always made sure he had to even contemplate it.

It's not a case of being convenient. These players got chances ahead of players who cost considerable money in some cases, those players may have disappointed but these clubs were still prepared to give the youngster a chance.

As Bob mentioned earlier, Torres is a classic example for us. We lost Sturridge due to this (I'm not getting into a debate if Sturridge was good money or not) , we also had Lukaku loaned out for another year rather than move Torres on. Point is,we took the easier option and I'm fairly certain we will again.

An example I will give you is RLC, I see very few scenarios where you would play Ramires ahead of RLC. Yet, I would be happy laying big money on Ramires playing more games than RLC next season.

This is not me saying RLC has to play ahead of Ramires at any given opportunity, but the easy option will be taken in Ramires, rather than who is the more talented football out of the two. It should be obvious to anyone that RLC has the more talent.

I could have probably used Mikel in this example too.

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^ I know we won't reach a resolution, but I cannot fathom the underlying logic behind what you're saying. The easier option is to play the worse player?! What possible reason would Mourinho or any other manager have for picking the lesser of two players? What feasible explanation or hypothesis can you offer for that?

On Torres, I definitely agree we alienated better (because that's primary to me; that they also happened to be younger is secondary) players in trying desperately to make him work but as I said a little earlier, I'd explain that by pointing to the sheer cost of Torres. He was too big too fail. Arsenal and Spurs, to stick with the Coquelin and Kane examples, have simply never made equivalent signings. Torres is not a rule that can be generalised. It is a fallacy to say Arsenal or Spurs 'gave' these players 'chances'; circumstance, and circumstance created by ineptitude at that, gave those players chances. Both clubs have been reduced to playing kids after senior signings flopped or broke every bone in their body. Very few had any impact and most of those kids disappeared. Should we congratulate clubs who have a high wastage rate because every now and then a player almost inadvertently comes through?

We are very, very fortunate that those circumstances by and large do not occur at Stamford Bridge. You wan't catch me moaning about the fact we have a brilliant senior team, which it seems to me is what some are implicitly doing.

It says a lot to me that a fair few people here and online generally are now worried about Arsenal for the first time in ages. Why? Because they're finally consistently spending money on top class players rather than relying on kids.

That's my final word on this, for this round of debate anyway. I'm sure it'll come back in a week or two and I'll be drawn in again!

Edited by thevelourfog

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For me the question isn't why we're sending them on loan. It's why we bothered signing them in the first place.

I think I can help you with that one. Presumably we signed them because people at the club had evaluated the player in question to have a future with us.

Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't.

But if you're never ready to give a young player a go you're likely to see mostly failures.

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Oh and those comments made by JM last summer is very likely to come back and bite him. You know the one where he said he'd have to blame himself if Brown, Baker, Solanke etc weren't full internationals in a few years.

Not sure why he said that. Only reason I can think of is to appease the board. I've got serious doubts he's ready to do what it takes for these ayers to get there.

Winning is number one for him. Everything is else is secondary. Sometimes it's just better to be honest and be the person you are and stop pretending to be something you're not.

Those comments put a lot of pressure on both himself and the young players in question. I'd be happy to be proved wrong but at the moment I can't see it.

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