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Scooba   

Its a tricky one. I think in a pivot , you ideally want both Ramires and Guarin to have freedom to break forward as it plays to both their strengths. I would have my doubts about it as a pairing, I think they would get dominated and we would be very susceptible to teams who counter attack quick.

Toure and Fernandinho? They can both break forward and both do, I think they've probably scored more than our first choice pairing in midfield this season (or any other combination for that matter). In 99% of our games both our midfielders will have to offer something in attack to merit a place in the starting line up. If both Ramires and Guarin are able to do so, I think it could be a perfect partnership.

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Zoowraa   

I honestly feel that Guarin would be a step in the wrong direction, and £15m is not exactly small money for a player who is 28 in 6 months.

Our previous stop-gap signings for midfield under Mourinho were Sidwell, Maniche, Jarosik, Smertin and Parker, all of which were much cheaper than the price of Guarin (except perhaps Parker) and were simply squad players who did ultimately get quite a lot of game time which would ultimately better spent on blooding our potential stars. Not to mention none went onto be solid starters for our club.

At present we have Ramires, Mikel, Lampard and Essien for two positions, with Van Ginkel coming back from injury in a few months, with De Bruyne as a young alternative to Lamps. My point is we should either spend exceedingly more for a true world class midfielder or save for the summer and actually use our existing players.

De Bruyne was a very competent midfielder in Germany and still is an outstanding prospect, if Mourinho does not invest in him then I feel we'd be wasting some excellent talent. I do believe Mourinho is brilliant and unrivaled overall as a coach but thinking back, he started Tiago in 2004 and yet De Bruyne doesn't even see the bench, I just can't reconcile that except that Tiago was more of a defensive player that played more of a simple role. Mourinho did say he would look to play him more earlier this month, perhaps De Bruyne will get a fair go during the Xmas period.

Its difficult to argue with what you say. I am a Guarin fan, but you make good points,

Jose does like experience in his teams though and most top managers in the game do too. His Chelsea team first time around was full of experienced players, his Inter team had even more top level experience and the same at Madrid.

So whilst I dont disagree with what you are saying, history points toward Jose using experienced players through the spine of the team ahead of Van Ginkel or De Bruyne.

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Zoowraa   

Toure and Fernandinho? They can both break forward and both do, I think they've probably scored more than our first choice pairing in midfield this season (or any other combination for that matter). In 99% of our games both our midfielders will have to offer something in attack to merit a place in the starting line up. If both Ramires and Guarin are able to do so, I think it could be a perfect partnership.

Yeah its a decent example to use. It might work, I just have my doubts.

EDIT - the slight difference, one of Toure or Fernandinho can push forward whilst the other sits and use the ball well, intelligently and still dictate play. If we leave this holding role to Ramires in a pivot , well I think you are asking for trouble.

Edited by Zoowraa

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Its difficult to argue with what you say. I am a Guarin fan, but you make good points,

Jose does like experience in his teams though and most top managers in the game do too. His Chelsea team first time around was full of experienced players, his Inter team had even more top level experience and the same at Madrid.

So whilst I dont disagree with what you are saying, history points toward Jose using experienced players through the spine of the team ahead of Van Ginkel or De Bruyne.

That's exactly right, Mourinho usually looks to top up midfield with experience and versatility, but that comes at a cost both monetarily and through sacrificed playing time to potential players who could ultimately become class acts.

Prior to FFP, or when managing the bottomless moneypit that is Madrid it would be fine, but if he wants our club to be sustainable across more than 5 seasons the solution has to be investing in younger players for rotation positions. What I don't understand is using De Bruyne is hardly a sacrifice...

Edited by Hulk Smash

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Flinkers   

Its a tricky one. I think in a pivot , you ideally want both Ramires and Guarin to have freedom to break forward as it plays to both their strengths. I would have my doubts about it as a pairing, I think they would get dominated and we would be very susceptible to teams who counter attack quick.

But Mikel or an upgrade version sat in there with them, I think looks a very tasty prospect. We would have pace and creativity out wide of the forward, we would counter from deep at real speed with either Guarin or Ramires, neither of them would have to worry too much about protecting the back four for large spells of the game. Guarin could sit higher up during spells of matches as more of a No 10 and let his pace create trouble in more dangerous areas of the pitch.

It looks a real nice balance using Mikel, Ramires, Guarin as a three to me. Ramires and Guarin in this type of role would win a lot of penalties from deep runs.

It certainly seems like the club is trying to find a player with similar characteristics to Ramires and you're probably right that they wouldn't be paired often; hence my hasty attempt to suggest a solution that may work.

Maybe the pursuit of Guarin (if true) is to try to lessen Ramires' workload or our reliance on him? After all, we have no other midfielder that comes close to his physical attributes and the moment he goes down injured, we tend to play even slower through midfield than our usual painfully slow pace. I've said this before, but if we are after someone similar we should be looking hard at PSG's Matuidi. A little over 6 months left on his contract, no rumours of him being close to signing another, excellent on paper stats and good experience both internationally and domestically. I'd like to see us try a cheeky bid in January (say €12m) and if that doesn't get him, go all out to sign him on a free in the summer.

We should certainly be looking for a player who is comfortable working the ball forwards from deep via quick passes. I have no idea who that could be though.

De Bruyne was a very competent midfielder in Germany and still is an outstanding prospect, if Mourinho does not invest in him then I feel we'd be wasting some excellent talent. I do believe Mourinho is brilliant and unrivaled overall as a coach but thinking back, he started Tiago in 2004 and yet De Bruyne doesn't even see the bench, I just can't reconcile that except that Tiago was more of a defensive player that played more of a simple role. Mourinho did say he would look to play him more earlier this month, perhaps De Bruyne will get a fair go during the Xmas period.

I think that was more to nip all the transfer rumours in the bud, which hasn't seemed to work.

I doubt De Bruyne will see much if any meaningful game time this season.

Sorry for the snipped post.

Edited by Flinkers

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Zoowraa   

That's exactly right, Mourinho usually looks to top up midfield with experience and versatility, but that comes at a cost both monetarily and through sacrificed playing time to potential players who could ultimately become class acts.

Prior to FFP, or when managing the bottomless moneypit that is Madrid it would be fine, but if he wants our club to be sustainable across more than 5 seasons the solution has to be investing in younger players for rotation positions. What I don't understand is using De Bruyne is hardly a sacrifice...

Yeah I get what you say and I think they are valid points.

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I honestly feel that Guarin would be a step in the wrong direction, and £15m is not exactly small money for a player who is 28 in 6 months.

Our previous stop-gap signings for midfield under Mourinho were Sidwell, Maniche, Jarosik, Smertin and Parker, all of which were much cheaper than the price of Guarin (except perhaps Parker) and were simply squad players who did ultimately get quite a lot of game time which would ultimately better spent on blooding our potential stars. Not to mention none went onto be solid starters for our club.

At present we have Ramires, Mikel, Lampard and Essien for two positions, with Van Ginkel coming back from injury in a few months, with De Bruyne as a young alternative to Lamps. My point is we should either spend exceedingly more for a true world class midfielder or save for the summer and actually use our existing players.

De Bruyne was a very competent midfielder in Germany and still is an outstanding prospect, if Mourinho does not invest in him then I feel we'd be wasting some excellent talent. I do believe Mourinho is brilliant and unrivaled overall as a coach but thinking back, he started Tiago in 2004 and yet De Bruyne doesn't even see the bench, I just can't reconcile that except that Tiago was more of a defensive player that played more of a simple role. Mourinho did say he would look to play him more earlier this month, perhaps De Bruyne will get a fair go during the Xmas period.

Couldn't disagree more.

The value of Smertin, Tiago and Jarosik shouldn't be assessed in terms of their individual contributions but instead in terms of how their presence assisted the squad. None established themselves as regulars but all were there if needs be- even an unused option has value. A title winning squad will invariably be resilient and will have been built based on worst case scenario planning- injuries, suspensions, change in management, other unforseeables. A resilient squad will always be one where a few players proved unnecessary in the end. That does not mean there wasn't immense value in bringing them in.

Ramires is a superhuman but he cannot maintain a good level of football if played for 180 minutes a week for the rest of the season. Many would suggest that has become clearer in recent weeks. Lampard, although super fit, cannot be expected to play to a high standard if used as often as in previous years. Mikel plays a completely different role, one Mourinho doesn't seem to want to use from kick off, and Essien is loveable but busted ... 1.5 meaningful games so far this season. Van Ginkel isn't even worth considering- right now he may as well be an U18.

De Bruyne seems to become a better player the less time he gets on the pitch. For me, he has a distinct Sturridge whiff to him- he's not playing so the only logical thing to assume is that he's either not producing where it matters or playing him isn't an option for reasons we're not clear on yet. I suspect now he's only a Chelsea player in the most technical sense.

There's plenty of space in our squad for another midfielder and, it being a squad, there's plenty of room for it to be a good player rather than a superstar. And a good 27 year old ... Well, that sounds ideal in a relatively young squad.

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Zoowraa   

It certainly seems like the club is trying to find a player with similar characteristics to Ramires and you're probably right that they wouldn't be paired often; hence my hasty attempt to suggest a solution that may work.

Maybe the pursuit of Guarin (if true) is to try to lessen Ramires' workload or our reliance on him? After all, we have no other midfielder that comes close to his physical attributes the moments he goes down injured, we tend to play even slower through midfield than our usual painfully slow pace. I've said this before, but if we are after someone similar we should be looking hard at PSG's Matuidi. A little over 6 months left on his contract, no rumours of him being close to signing another, excellent on paper stats and good experience both internationally and domestically. I'd like to see us try a cheeky bid in January (say €12m) and if that doesn't get him, go all out to sign him on a free in the summer.

We should certainly be looking for a player who is comfortable working the ball forwards from deep via quick passes. I have no idea who that could be though.

Yeah another good player from bits I have see of Matuidi. I dont know his game intimately, but from what I seen last season in Champions League he looked good.

I think another name worthy of mention is Cabaye. I would be certainly be happy with any of these two or Guarin as signings, any of them will improve us and add another option in there.

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GURJ SS   

I think Jose is trying to get 2 players in midfield who can both defend and attack, with enough pace to get back to help out in defence. If Guarin signs we will have two true box to box players. I think we still need Vidal though, if not then Pogba, but we must go for one of them, if not both. Would take big money but complete us. I would go as far as throwing Mata and De Bruyne in the deal, why, I will explain:

My only concern is that with a 2 man midfield behind the 3 AM's, the opposition's AM always finds space behind the CMs, an they can get confused as to who drops back in the hole. In a 4:3:3; we would have a sitting midfielder, who would stop the AM and also isolate the oppositions striker(s) from their team. My first choice is Gonalons, I think he is a fantastic player no doubt. We could even offer their former star Essien in the deal, and I think he would jump at the chance to go back. In short, I want our midfield for next season to be: Gonalons, Ramires, Guarin, Vidal, Pogba. I know it is a overhaul but to be honest we need it. We once had a midfield with the likes of Makelele, Essien, Ballack, Lampard, even Gudjhonsen would play in there too. That is a very strong past we have had. So that would leave 2 AMs behind the striker, with my choices being Hazard, Oscar, Willian and Shurrle. We would have enough options to go 4:3:3; 4:2:3;1, as also 4:4:2; all without being compromised in anyway.

I know some wi say it's championship/fifa manager, whichever one it is. But at the end of January we could have Ramires and Guarin. Offer Essien plus a small fee to Lyon for Gonalons. Offer Mata, De Bruyne plus cash for Vidal and Pogba, yes it would still be big money, but worth it no doubt. Just a thought though, I would prefer 4:3:3; with one DM and 2 box to box players instead of 4:2:3:1; it's just too open.

Edit: I agree that Matudi would be worth a look at, especially for free. But I still think Gonalons would be a better buy as a DM.

Edited by GURJ SS

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todongo   

There's no telling how good Fredy will be in the Premier League but the price is good for an all-around center midfielder who is a starter for Colombia, has proven skill and athleticism, etc. Zero complaints from me and I've watched Fredy for more than a few matches for Colombia, Inter, and Porto. Seems to me Fredy needs a new manager; no attitude problems with Fredy IMO.

Chelsea still need a Matic even if they finalise this transfer.

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