Harvz

Transfer Talk Topic

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20 hours ago, jangz said:

worried after yesterday's display I know its only the 3rd game of the pre-season but our midfield looks very thin on number. Fabregas needs a 3 man midfield IMO to prosper because he is a defensive liability. Letting Chalobah go was a big surprise for me, I was really looking forward to seeing him.

I really do believe a 3 man midfield of Fabregas, Bakayako and Kante wont cut it. We need another one in their with some defensive qualities which is where chalobah was a good option for the squad. 

Also on the LB front we literally have very few options. What is happening with Baba ? he is still our player when is he coming back. Could be an option if we miss out on Sandro.

Yes, we're still very thin in a number of positions.

Baba's recovering at Cobham and won't be available until the end of the year. He should probably go out on loan in Jan.

 

20 hours ago, Ham said:

Pep saying in a press conference that Real Madrid don't have access to more funds than City.

If that doesn't prompt an FFP investigation I don't know what will.  

#notrealmoney

Well, at least he's being honest. City are funded by the Abu Dhabi government. They have state wealth. 

 

20 hours ago, jangz said:

yeah agree with the sentiment, I am just not confident about cesc against top 6, who play a 3 man midfield against us. A credible CM option is a must. I haven't watched pasalic to be honest but if he can bring in the required quality we should be fine.

 

Pasalic is on his way out, apparently to either Real Betis or Spartak Moscow. 

He was never going to be a real option. 

 

19 hours ago, Box of Tricks said:

Need another magic man who can give us what Hazard gives us (in terms of end product). Teams can't double and tripe mark multiple players for ninety minutes and survive.

 

This. We struggle to create at times without Hazard. We've needed to bring someone in close to his level for some time now. 

 

18 hours ago, Martin1905 said:

I was talking to a friend the other day, and I said I think we could do an lot worse than him. He laughed and said not in a million years for £50m. I asked him if he would do a straight swap for Matic, in theory, he said absolutely.

He actually makes a lot of sense.

 

16 hours ago, jangz said:

How about Ross Barkley folks? Read Koeman literally do a Con(s)te(a) on him. I know we have had a poor experience with Everton previously but worth a punt?

A big no to either. Firstly, they're hilariously over priced and Barkely in particular is overrated. Secondly, they're both most comfortable as Number 10's or 8's. We play with neither. 

 

15 hours ago, James Prescott said:

I know many here don't like him but always been a fan. We need to sign at least one HG and he'd improve us. Working with Conte and better players, played in the right position, he'd improve and get fitter and sharper.

Maybe not a £50 million player, but yes for £35 million.

Maybe at £15 million and even then I'd consider it a waste 

 

10 hours ago, BlueFizz said:

Good summary except go back and read the articles again.

The Conte direct quotes encompass Walker but not these others - it's a craftily written piece using good technique: the author implies the later claims come from the source - I question that; if they do, why not use them as direct quotes.

I am a professional writer (for businesses and brands, a few articles - Huffington Post, sustainability issues) - but I know that direct quotes are the gold standard.

So I think the writer is rolling in some bigger assumptions on Mendy and possibly Danilo too. Not saying we didn't bid - just wondering, professionally, why the attributable quotes fizzle out.

Spot on. 

 

9 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Indeed the absence of a direct quote is always a big signal.
 

Very true.
Let's celebrate the No 9s we have had when winning the title.

Roy Bentley 41 starts 1955
Drogba 18 starts 2005
Gudjohnsen 30 starts 2005 ( I guess 20 as CF, 10 in  midfield)
Drogba 20 starts 2006
Crespo 20 starts 2006  (mostly as single strikers, some as 2 up top with Drogba)
Drogba 31 starts in 2010 ( I guess Anelka up for for the other 7)
Costa    24 starts in 2015
Drogba   8 starts in 2015
Remy      6 starts in 2015 (I guess as CF as that makes 38 between them)
Costa    34 starts in 2017  
Bats        1 start   in 2017 (the other 3?  Hazard for at least one).

So Drogba beats Costa by 1 start as top starting title winning CF.

On goals (including sub appearances) it is 

Drogba 54
Costa  40
Bentley 21
Crespo  10
Gudjohnsen 12 (perhaps some from midfield)
Remy      7
Bats        5

and one from the non-strikers
Lampard  51
 

 

Good stuff. 

 

1 hour ago, Martin1905 said:

Conte has quite clearly been on the offensive this week.

We need players, of a certain quality, we need them now and they are going to cost quite a bit of money.

He has made it crystal what he wants and what he needs if we are going to compete in not only the league but also in Europe.  

He has mentioned a few times now that the market is expensive and the type of players he wants will cost you £50m+. This time he even made a point of naming a player that we were not prepared to spend that much on that a direct rival was.

he's being very clever and is really trying to make a point. 

Yes, I see it this way as well. He's put the ball in the boards court. It's up to them to deliver. 

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3 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

He also makes the same point that Droy always makes in that there is a World of difference between a young player who's got over 100 first team games under his belt in a top league and has played in the Champions League and a home grown player.

That said , I cannot see why we cannot at least try and do what Fergie always did at United , he'd have a team chock full of winners and big name players and he'd play one kid , the next week , it'd be a different kid , the week after , another, eventually you end the season with half a dozen Youth team players with 10/12 first team appearances to their names depending on how well you do in the cups then at least you know "something" about them. Maybe in this day and age even that minimalist approach is considered too risky?

Thing is Conte also said that a young player needs patience, which I think is where he contradicts himself. If Chalobah had stayed, he'd have found himself not being picked because he lacks experience(especially with Conte making a point about Baka coming in because of his experience), something that he can only overcome if he gets picked. Chalobah chose to leave to get more experience, and he definitely made the right choice based on Conte's words.

I think that against any team below 8th in the league, one young upcoming player shouldn't make a huge difference in terms of quality(I'd say for CB, CM, and CF - the opposition would be below 12th), if it makes us poor, then either we are failing in the youth set up or our starting XI is not up to the task.

 

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12 minutes ago, GURJ SS said:

Thing is Conte also said that a young player needs patience, which I think is where he contradicts himself. If Chalobah had stayed, he'd have found himself not being picked because he lacks experience(especially with Conte making a point about Baka coming in because of his experience), something that he can only overcome if he gets picked. Chalobah chose to leave to get more experience, and he definitely made the right choice based on Conte's words.

I think that against any team below 8th in the league, one young upcoming player shouldn't make a huge difference in terms of quality(I'd say for CB, CM, and CF - the opposition would be below 12th), if it makes us poor, then either we are failing in the youth set up or our starting XI is not up to the task.

 

It comes down to that player needing to be better than everybody else to get picked doesn't it. And when it's all said and done, these managers see these players much more than we do so if Conte deemed that playing Kante or Matic over Chalobah was the best option, then I'm going to trust him on that.

I guess I fall on the side of that while I'd love for a youngster to progress through the ranks and feature on a regular basis for the first team, I would in no shape or form want that to impact on us competing for trophies on a regular basis.

People can say that they'd accept a few years of mediocrity if it meant players coming through, but deep down they wouldn't. Look at us after the 15/16 season.

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1 hour ago, Dingus said:

I guess I fall on the side of that while I'd love for a youngster to progress through the ranks and feature on a regular basis for the first team, I would in no shape or form want that to impact on us competing for trophies on a regular basis.

 

Arsenal.  How many ordinary players have 50 appearances for Arsenal at 22, and then disappeared from top level football?  Loads.
Djourou and Senderos come to mind first for me, but there are dozens more.  Imagine being one of the decent players at Arsenal since 2005, and finding your team made up with wannabees.  No wonder so many went off to Man City.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with Conte.

You need to put this trend into context.

First - the age range of top level footballers has risen over the years: fitness means they play for longer and this has an impact at the bottom end. One might argue that 22 is the new 17-18 compared with ten years ago.

I also think (based on comments I've read from Mourinho, Conte, Wenger, Ferguson and many others in the game) that young players (and their 'advisors') expect and demand more at an earlier age than previously - bigger salaries, bigger sponsorship deals, bigger role in the squad.

You can see this is an issue for all the top clubs - and I personally think it's too easy to place all the blame on those clubs' shoulders.

The upcoming players and their advisors have to share the responsibility too.

I see the argument that Bakayaro only got his 100 games, because he was picked. But Chalobah was racking up minutes slowly but steadily - and with Matic probably going had a great chance to push himself more into the reckoning.

I always rated him- but tbh any player who prefers to play week in/week out (assuming he does) for Watford, rather than push himself as far as he can and win trophies at Chelsea or any other big club, is demonstrating one of the reasons why he won't succeed at a big club.

We may regret the deal.

But do I think I'm more likely to see Chalobah down at Dulwich Hamlet (when CFC not at home) in a few years - than turning out against us for City or Barca?

Yes, sadly I do.

 

 

Edited by BlueFizz

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Posted (edited)

34 minutes ago, BlueFizz said:

I agree with Conte.

You need to put this trend into context.

First - the age range of top level footballers has risen over the years: fitness means they play for longer and this has an impact at the bottom end. One might argue that 22 is the new 17-18 compared with ten years ago.

I also think (based on comments I've read from Mourinho, Conte, Wenger, Ferguson and many others in the game) that young players (and their 'advisors') expect and demand more at an earlier age than previously - bigger salaries, bigger sponsorship deals, bigger role in the squad.

You can see this is an issue for all the top clubs - and I personally think it's too easy to place all the blame on those clubs' shoulders.

The upcoming players and their advisors have to share the responsibility too.

I see the argument that Bakayaro only got his 100 games, because he was picked. But Chalobah was racking up minutes slowly but steadily - and with Matic probably going had a great chance to push himself more into the reckoning.

I always rated him- but tbh any player who prefers to play week in/week out (assuming he does) for Watford, rather than push himself as far as he can and win trophies at Chelsea or any other big club, is demonstrating one of the reasons why he won't succeed at a big club.

We may regret the deal.

But do I think I'm more likely to see Chalobah down at Dulwich Hamlet (when CFC not at home) in a few years - than turning out against us for City or Barca?

Yes, sadly I do.

 

 

I think Conte has always said - especially at Juve - that if you're good enough, you play, regardless of fee.

At Juve he took over an experienced squad and brought in this untested teenager with barely any first team football behind him at all, and played him ahead of more experienced players because he showed in training he was good enough to play.

In 2016 that player became the world's most expensive player .

I think Conte genuinely wanted to give Chalobah more minutes this year and the fact we offered him a 5 year deal to stay proves that. If Chalobah had stayed, then he'd have had a chance to force his way in, and if he didn't succeed we could sell him later for a relatively big fee and he'd get his chance somewhere else. But Conte is right - Bakayoko got a chance at Monaco and took it, he was a key player in their run to win the league and get to the CL semis last year, and he's played more first team games at higher level than Chalobah.

JT has often lamented in interviews how much young players get paid and pampered now in comparison to his day, when he got paid YTS wages and then low wages, which he supplemented by cleaning the boots of the first team players - he was doing that even after debuting for the first team. He said this taught him to work hard and that you had to earn your place in the first team squad, and in the team, you had to earn a big contract, it wasn't just given to you as a 'promising youngster'. And they lived in digs as well. 

Nowadays young players get paid fortunes, live in nice houses, drive nice cars and don't clean senior players boots. So there's more a sense of entitlement, less of a work ethic, less pushing them to succeed and earn that big contract, less gratitude for what they get, and an unhealthy perspective on life, being given so much so young rather than earning it. JT has said he'd love to bring back things like young players living in digs and cleaning boots, just to teach them perspective and a work ethic. 

This is probably what Conte means by that sense of entitlement by young players  - remember he had to work his way up in the old culture as well. 

Edited by James Prescott
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11 hours ago, kev61 said:

Really? Have you ever watched the documentary 'the naked civil servant' quinten crisp played by John Hurt!.

The action in that superb drama/doc didn't take place on an internet forum Kev.

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3 hours ago, A Blue Essien said:

Yes, we're still very thin in a number of positions.

Baba's recovering at Cobham and won't be available until the end of the year. He should probably go out on loan in Jan.

 

Well, at least he's being honest. City are funded by the Abu Dhabi government. They have state wealth. 

 

Pasalic is on his way out, apparently to either Real Betis or Spartak Moscow. 

He was never going to be a real option. 

 

This. We struggle to create at times without Hazard. We've needed to bring someone in close to his level for some time now. 

 

 

A big no to either. Firstly, they're hilariously over priced and Barkely in particular is overrated. Secondly, they're both most comfortable as Number 10's or 8's. We play with neither. 

 

Maybe at £15 million and even then I'd consider it a waste 

 

Spot on. 

 

Good stuff. 

 

Yes, I see it this way as well. He's put the ball in the boards court. It's up to them to deliver. 

Hmm not many options for HG players are there then..the England team is almost exclusively made of spurs and pool. really no combative midfielders going around. 

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5 hours ago, James Prescott said:

Costa, whilst making significant contributions on the pitch at times, never learned the language,

Look James, speaking as someone who now lives, at least for the time being, in a foreign country, I can tell you that learning the language ain't easy. You imply here that Costa not learning the language is evidence of his lack of application. That may be a reason to some degree but it needn't necessarily be the entire reason. I repeat, it is hard.

Have you ever had to do it yourself?

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I think that, when it comes to Costa, his refusal to learn the language is 100% lack of application and nothing else.

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