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1 hour ago, Bob Singleton said:

He's been putting in a shift on a very regular basis at City... all he needed was a manager willing to push him into doing so and trusting him to do so. Jose doesn't coach young players to become better; if a young player happens to be better than other, older players, in his position, Jose will play him, and as a result of regular playing time, they will continue to develop.

Why not just admit that this is all about JM for you.

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xCELERYx   
9 hours ago, Holymoly said:

Performance, or lack thereof, in league appearances is really only the tip of the iceberg. Everyone seems to think real life must be like Football Manager. Sit the players down in the changing room before the game and motivate them. It isn't like that. There is a week's work of training before Saturday arrives and if a player hasn't been performing well in the leadup up to the game why would you play him at the weekend? I know how I'd feel if I was knocking my guts out day in day out then my spot was taken by some champagne charlie who barey appeared in training.

I don't know what the situation was but I am quite confident in guessing no manager is going to cold shoulder an amazing talent for the fun of it. It's a team game and maybe KdB wasn't being a team player. Who knows? Whatever though it hasn't exactly harmed out success rate over the last few years. Sometimes players just don't fit with a club. I could care less where the guy is playing now.

Opportunity is everything though. Clearly he was a talented player and sometimes with talent you make exceptions. I mean, it's known that Hazard doesn't train intensely during the week yet he's still been able to maintain a regular starting position in our team since he joined. At the end of the day, what happens on the pitch on game day is what matters most. We've all seen Batshuayi work intensely off the pitch - including hitting the gym after games. Does that mean he should command a regular start in our side over Morata? 

Training hard obviously plays a part and puts you in a better position to be selected, but it's not the be all and end all of it. Talent and ability is often going to outweigh what's on the training park. Unless a player is seriously not applying themselves at all - then it may likely change.

You can't blame a clearly young talented player for wanting to play. KdB played a whole 132 minutes of EPL football in his 3 appearances for us and was then cast aside. Given, he had quality players ahead of him he was still good enough and talented enough to feature more than the 3 times he did.

Keep in mind this isn't the first time we've seen this exact same situation - low and beyond they've been predominately all under one particular manager. Lukaku played 158 minutes of league football for us before being sent out on loan where he impressed at WBA. He then returned to play 41 minutes before his eventual loan and sale to Everton. A grand total of 199 minutes across 1 league start and 9 sub appearances. Salah was another - he picked up 6 starts and 7 sub appearances for his 531 minutes of league football for us before we shipped him off to Fiorentina where he also impressed. Which lead to his eventual loan and sale to Roma - again after another fine season. How about the case of Juan Cuadrado. A key player at Fiorentina and on the back of an impressive WC showing, we sign him and he goes on to play 338 minutes in the league across his 4 starts and 9 sub appearances before being shipped off to Juventus on loan - where he also impressed before completing a permanent transfer. 

It's hard to not be frustrated to then see these same players we've failed to really accomodate with genuine opportunity and patience go on to become very good players elsewhere. Not to mention it has made us, as a club, look a little ridiculous in the process.

That said, what's done is done. Can only hope a lesson has been learnt from it all.

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1 hour ago, xCELERYx said:

That said, what's done is done. Can only hope a lesson has been learnt from it all.

The lesson was simple - we bought a great deal of talent over 2011 to 2014.  A lot of it - Willian, Courtois, Hazard, Oscar, Luiz, Cahill, Azpi,  became massive successes for Chelsea at our club.  And I nearly forgot Costa (Edit and I absolutely forgot Christensen and Moses).
A lot of the rest we still sold on for a profit.
It is one hell of a success rate, and a lot of credit is due to Emenalo and team and equally to the managers that brought those players through.  It was a massively successful period for the club, that started with a CL win and laid the platform for the 2 PL victories.

Thank God we didn't turn into Arsenal and try to make KdB into the next Wilshere.  Instead we focused on the team, and went 2nd and 2 titles in the next 4 years.  

Lets hope we carry on that way rather than turn into a development club for Centre Backs like Southampton.
One or two slipped through

Edited by Droy was my hero

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9 hours ago, Bob Singleton said:

He's been putting in a shift on a very regular basis at City... all he needed was a manager willing to push him into doing so and trusting him to do so. Jose doesn't coach young players to become better; if a young player happens to be better than other, older players, in his position, Jose will play him, and as a result of regular playing time, they will continue to develop. However, if a young player has several older players ahead of him, Jose will not coach him to become better, because he would rather trust the older players than the youngster. In that respect he's a very lazy manager, and that's been shown in his transfer dealings over the years at various clubs.

I laugh when I see some on here calling de Bruyne a 'passenger' or a 'luxury'.

 

 

So. Jose hasn't improved players at United then? Any other season and they'd likely be top (or within touching distance to the leaders). Almost as good as Fergies last season at this stage. And since we are talking about one player which you so bluntly manages to transform to "Jose never do this" based on KDB, should we draw the conclusion that Conte can't improve players because Bats is just as useless as he's been day one without giving him proper opportunities to develop?

 

Edited by Michael Tucker
Rubbish removed. No more.

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3 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

 

So. Jose hasn't improved players at United then? Any other season and they'd likely be top (or within touching distance to the leaders). Almost as good as Fergies last season at this stage. And since we are talking about one player which you so bluntly manages to transform to "Jose never do this" based on KDB, should we draw the conclusion that Conte can't improve players because Bats is just as useless as he's been day one without giving him proper opportunities to develop?

 

3 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

 

Dave , Rashford , Martial , Herrera , Smalling , Mhikataryan (?) Have definitely regressed under Mourinho and personally I think despite his limited opportunities Conte has improved Bats , his hold up play has definitely improved as has his awareness of others.

On think there is a faction here that think liking Conte is tantamount to hating Mourinho .

I didn't want us to get rid of Jose but am now affording Conte the same loyalty but there are a few who describe ten United players cowering inside their own area as Jose's brave 4-2-4 formation and kid themselves our 3-5-2 is an ultra defensive 5-3-2 or the even more moronic assessment 8-1-1.

As for KDB , when he played for us I heard a tale about him that led me to believe he was a dick head so personally I was happy to see the back of him , he's gone on to be a vital cog in City's behemoth so he's obviously got something , you don't agree ,which is fine but remember all those conversations you had explaining to unbelievers about the majesty of Zlatan ? This is like that .

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2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

 

Dave , Rashford , Martial , Herrera , Smalling , Mhikataryan (?) Have definitely regressed under Mourinho and personally I think despite his limited opportunities Conte has improved Bats , his hold up play has definitely improved as has his awareness of others.

On think there is a faction here that think liking Conte is tantamount to hating Mourinho .

I didn't want us to get rid of Jose but am now affording Conte the same loyalty but there are a few who describe ten United players cowering inside their own area as Jose's brave 4-2-4 formation and kid themselves our 3-5-2 is an ultra defensive 5-3-2 or the even more moronic assessment 8-1-1.

As for KDB , when he played for us I heard a tale about him that led me to believe he was a dick head so personally I was happy to see the back of him , he's gone on to be a vital cog in City's behemoth so he's obviously got something , you don't agree ,which is fine but remember all those conversations you had explaining to unbelievers about the majesty of Zlatan ? This is like that .

You are just randomply plucking names out of a hat. Rashford is a much better player today compared to when José took over. Smalling? He was always useless and I have no idea who Dave is. But considering that José has improved United from 1.61 pts/game after 18 games in 2015-16 to 2.28 pts/game after 18 games in 2017-18 he must be doing something right. 

Let's turn it around - who has Conte improved at Chelsea? You say Bats? Seriously? Honestly, and I say this as a Conte fan, the only player Conte has improved is Moses and he was just placed in a new position. I don't think there is a single player that Conte has tangibly improved. Certainly none of the attacking players at the club during his stint. Not a single midfielder. Courtois? No. Defense? Maybe, just maybe Azpilicueta and then finding Moses a new position.  

I don't think you hate Mourinho because you like Conte. I like Conte and Mourinho. But when you say stuff like you do above it's hard to draw any other conclusion that your hate for Mourinho clouds your judgement. 

As for KDB - I agree he has something. I always thought he was a special talent. Just not a talent that can function properly in a side that is built on team work and his own work rate is very average. In a side like City, that has so much attacking talent that it's impossible to close one or two outlets down (because they have 5 others that can hurt you) it's a slightly different prospect. He gets time and space on the ball because his team mates are so good in their own right. If Hazard played for City he'd be scoring bucket loads of goals. Look at someone like Sterling. He's nowhere near Hazards level yet he's scoring for fun in that City side - ditto Jesus. I don't think he's all that but he's got a nose for finding the goal and playing for City he'll get a handful of chances per game. 

Regarding Bats... He's just as useless today as he was when he was signed. I can't see any improvement whatsoever and I don't think Conte sees it either considering he's got a grand total of 469 PL minutes over a season and a half. That's roughly 5 full PL games in 16 months. Roughly what KDB amassed in his first 6 weeks at the club. Yet your conclusion is that KDB never got a chance here while Conte is improving Bats. 

It's hard to have a sensible discussion about this (as I hope you can see from the last example).

 

Edited by Sleeping Dave

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2 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

You are just randomply plucking names out of a hat. Rashford is a much better player today compared to when José took over. Smalling? He was always useless and I have no idea who Dave is. 

Let's turn it around - who has Conte improved at Chelsea? You say Bats? Seriously? Honestly, and I say this as a Conte fan, the only player Conte has improved is Moses and he was just placed in a new position. I don't think there is a single player that Conte has tangibly improved. Certainly none of the attacking players at the club during his stint. Not a single midfielder. Courtois? No. Defense? Maybe, just maybe Azpilicueta and then finding Moses a new position.  

I don't think ypou hate Mourinho because you like Conte. I like Conte and Mourinho. But when you say stuff like you do above it's hard to draw any other conclusion that your hate for Mourinho clouds your judgement. 

As for KDB - I agree he has something. I always thought he was a special talent. Just not a talent that can function properly in a side that is built on team work and his own work rate is very average. In a side like City, that has so much attacking talent that it's impossible to close one or two outlets down (because they have 5 others that can hurt you) it's a slightly different prospect. He gets time and space on the ball because his team mates are so good in their own right. If Hazard played for City he'd be scoring bucket loads of goals. Look at someone like Sterling. He's nowhere near Hazards level yet he's scoring for fun in that City side - ditto Jesus. I don't think he's all that but he's got a nose for finding the goal and playing for City he'll get a handful of chances per game. 

Regarding Bats... He's just as useless today as he was when he was signed. I can't see any improvement whatsoever and I don't think Conte sees it either considering he's got a grand total of 469 PL minutes over a season and a half. That's roughly 5 full PL games in 16 months. Roughly what KDB amassed in his first 6 weeks at the club. 

 

Dave .

Dave is you .

Let me categorically tell you I absolutely do not hate Jose , as I said previously , I was happy for him to keep his job , he earned his position and as a club we should have stood by him in his moment of need , he was royally screwed by the board if you ask me .

However , he has definitely lost something over the years and imho his antics which seemed at the time like he was fighting little Chelseas side in the media now look trite when he tries the same on behalf of the establishment side that is footballing giant Manchester United .

He really hasn't improved Rashford at all or Martial or Mikhtaryan . Rashford has been shunted around to incorporate Lukaku and his confidence has taken a massive hit. Martial again has been degraded into a supporting role , that he has tried is a testament to him alone .

Mikhtaryan , from free scoring box to box player to the invisible man.

Conte has definitely improved our players , he improved them from tenth to first in one season and if we had United's budget we'd be above them by miles. 

Bats has definitely improved , you can argue he still isn't CFC quality but as I said before his hold up play and awareness of his role and others positions has improved dramatically.

There is absolutely no need to chose between Mourinho or Conte , one is a club legend and the other is on the path to becoming one .

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If KDB isn't yet world class he's very close to it. He would walk into any side in the world on current form.

I have no regrets about him leaving though. Something was cleary not right and he probably wouldn't be the player he is today if he had stayed. I also remember most at the time thought we got good money for him, certainly very few were up in arms about him leaving. 

Talking of Mikhtaryan I'd be all over him if there is any chance of him leaving, which it looks like there may be.

Edited by Martin1905

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Just now, Martin1905 said:

If KDB isn't yet world class he's very close to it. He would walk into any side in the world on current form.

I have no regrets about him leaving though. Something was cleary not right and he proba my wouldn't be the player he is today if he had stayed. I also remember most at the time thought we got good money for him, certainly very few were up in arms about him leaving. 

Talking of Mikhtaryan I'd be all over him if there is any chance of him leaving, which it looks like there may be.

There's an article on football 365 where KDB states that he pressed for a transfer instead of a loan and that Jose wanted him to stay and fight for his place instead so everyone should certainly give JM a pass on that one.

 

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30 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

There's an article on football 365 where KDB states that he pressed for a transfer instead of a loan and that Jose wanted him to stay and fight for his place instead so everyone should certainly give JM a pass on that one.

 

It's universal knowledge that both KDB and Lukaku left against the managers wishes. Both players and the manager has consistently told the same story. Lukaku reiterated them when he signed for United last summer. 

I find it hard to believe all three would lie about it. Mainly because they'd have no reason to do so. 

 

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