• Current Donation Goals

Harvz

Transfer Talk Topic

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

Look at the flack that Emanalo got on here when not one person here knew what he actually did.

Conte keeps saying it's not his responsibility , maybe it's not his responsibility ?

Emenalo got flack because he was ultimately responsible for the recruitment at the club. That much is clear. Was he alone? No of course not, Marina would have been telling the manager and Emenalo what funds were available and then Emenalo and his scouts would find the targets we should go after. 

Recruitment, the loan army and the scouting was his responsibilities. Not sure why people claim it's unclear. 

Conte keeps saying a lot of things that isn't necessarily relevant - like he doesn't have a big enough squad (while not using the players he does have in the first place). 

But maybe you are right. Maybe Emenalo had nothing to do with signings and maybe Conte (or whoever is the manager) doesn't either. I suppose it's Bruce Buck and Marina who travels around the world to find our next player. Or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Emenalo got flack because he was ultimately responsible for the recruitment at the club. That much is clear. Was he alone? No of course not, Marina would have been telling the manager and Emenalo what funds were available and then Emenalo and his scouts would find the targets we should go after. 

Recruitment, the loan army and the scouting was his responsibilities. Not sure why people claim it's unclear. 

Conte keeps saying a lot of things that isn't necessarily relevant - like he doesn't have a big enough squad (while not using the players he does have in the first place). 

But maybe you are right. Maybe Emenalo had nothing to do with signings and maybe Conte (or whoever is the manager) doesn't either. I suppose it's Bruce Buck and Marina who travels around the world to find our next player. Or not.

All I do know for certain is Mourinho moaned about it and now Conte is moaning about it , maybe just maybe neither of them had the influence they felt they were due .

As for traveling around the World , it's certainly not Conte doing it is it ?

He's got his hands full here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

But , everyone is ignoring the fact that Conte keeps harping on about not being in charge of transfers , referring to himself as coach , not manager and even wearing the track suit to get his point across.

He would say that especially prior to windows when conferences regularly start with questions like "how are your plans to bring in new players going". 

If you had written that you don't think Conte has any control over transfers there would be a purpose in raising it.  Do you?  As it is it sounds like one of your awkward but pointless points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

He would say that especially prior to windows when conferences regularly start with questions like "how are your plans to bring in new players going". 

If you had written that you don't think Conte has any control over transfers there would be a purpose in raising it.  Do you?  As it is it sounds like one of your awkward but pointless points.

 

I don't think Conte has any control over transfers.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

 

I don't think Conte has any control over transfers.

Really - that is a very audacious statement.  I'd be very surprised if you are right.  But an interesting viewpoint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

All I do know for certain is Mourinho moaned about it and now Conte is moaning about it , maybe just maybe neither of them had the influence they felt they were due .

As for traveling around the World , it's certainly not Conte doing it is it ?

He's got his hands full here.

Oh I'm not saying that the claim doesn't have merit. I do think that both Mourinho and Conte think they didn't have enough say or that the money men (woman) were too tight with money/we were too slow to close deals/whatever. 

I'm also fairly certain that Emenalo and (mainly) his scouts were responsible for keeping tabs on players across the continent so that they could add alternatives to the names the manager had identified.

My perception of how this works (contacts with the scouting network at Chelsea through a friend in the business, reading beween the lines in interviews and connecting the dots with some logical reasoning) is that the club (Marina and her team) communicates what money the manager can spend. We have seen the loan army generating considerable funds over the last two summers. I imagine that goes into the pot of funds available. We should also remember the amortisation of player cost (transfer fee) plus wages which can be a considerable amount for a player like Morata. 

Then I imagine that the manager/first team coach and Emenalo talk about the squad on an on-going basis to identify areas where we need to buy outside talent.  I imagine that both Conte and Emenalo proposes names to the list and that they simply rank them from top to bottom based on who's the first choice etc. Emenalo's names coming from the vast player database the Chelsea scouting team has amassed over the years while Conte's names comes from his experience of them in some way. 

Then the list is given to Marina and her team who then proceed, with or without help from Emenalo (some conflicting stories on this one - but the most common idea is that Emenalo has an active role in some negotiations with agents) while the manager/first team coach has nothing to do with this process unless it's to contact the player and convince him he's in his plans (Fabregas and Costa examples of this). 

I imagine that we negotiate with multiple parties for the same squad role in order to play them out over one another to get the best value. I also think that this is the reason why we leave it quite late in the windows these days. A strategy that isn't working great to be fair in this sellers market. 

Anyhow, that's my picture of this this works. Well worked to be honest, Emenalo isn't here so I'm not sure if there's anyone proposing names to Contes targets for the coming window. Or if that had already been done by Emenalo before he left. Maybe I'm off my rocker. Maybe I'm right or perhaps somewhere in between. But I'm fairly certain that the manager has a big say in who the actual targets are. Just look at the players we've bought since Conte signed. Alonso? Morata? Zappcosta? All three has Conte written all over it. Luiz, Bats, Kante, Drinkwater, Bakayoko fees more like "Emenalo" signings (for lack of a better word). 

Applying it to previous signings/managers... Scolari and Deco. Mourinho and Drogba/Carvalho/Ferreira/Tiago etc etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My view on the KdB sale for the last few years has been that the sale was never the issue; it was buying him in the first place. Same with Lukaku, same with Salah.

I think our scouts and whoever handled negotiating did a fantastic job signing those sorts of players, but just not necessarily the job that might best suit the club and team. It's not a bad plan to identify young and cheap talent and gamble on it, but I think there's an argument to be made for it being a better plan to take fewer gambles and pay more for sure things. I could never say it for sure, but would it have been an option to wait a year or two a buy a more complete KdB, Lukaku or Salah for two or three times what we paid but less than what they are worth now? And would that have been a better deal given they'd have been in a position to contribute immediately? I'd say so; we've a first-choice XI built on £30m or so players who were ready immediately, and maybe that's where the spending money should have stayed focused. 

The approach we took inevitably leads to talented players moving on; it would happen no matter who was picking the team, and it's daft to suggest otherwise.

As for who has what say in transfers ... I think it's pretty clear the club consistently aims to have a small senior squad, and that managers have consistently been at least complicit in that. Remember when some here thought Conte was such an independent, fiery character that he'd walk if he didn't get what he wanted? Turns out he likes getting paid more, not that there's any shame in that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I think our scouts and whoever handled negotiating did a fantastic job signing those sorts of players, but just not necessarily the job that might best suit the club and team. It's not a bad plan to identify young and cheap talent and gamble on it, but I think there's an argument to be made for it being a better plan to take fewer gambles and pay more for sure things. I could never say it for sure, but would it have been an option to wait a year or two a buy a more complete KdB, Lukaku or Salah for two or three times what we paid but less than what they are worth now? And would that have been a better deal given they'd have been in a position to contribute immediately? I'd say so; we've a first-choice XI built on £30m or so players who were ready immediately, and maybe that's where the spending money should have stayed focused. 

I suspect it was just a massive punt on young talent at that time, and linked more to expectations of increased TV fees leading to more big clubs splashing the cash and higher prices.   The club's/RA's timing was brilliant.  That the talent scouts found so many good trades and so few poor trades was brilliant.  That JM and Conte integrated so many of them into the first team was brilliant.  That so few got away, and even then remained trading profits was remarkable.

If we were just interested in finding the perfect time to buy and integrate KdB or Salah, we might have done it differently, but I don't think that was the goal.  But as it was we did choose the perfect time to buy Willian, Hazard, Oscar, Luiz, Azpi, Cahill, Costa, Matic, and any time is right to buy Fabregas.  And buy and loan Courtois was a perfectly managed trade.  On player timing they almost always got it right too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Holymoly   
On 18/12/2017 at 11:19 PM, xCELERYx said:

Opportunity is everything though. Clearly he was a talented player and sometimes with talent you make exceptions. I mean, it's known that Hazard doesn't train intensely during the week yet he's still been able to maintain a regular starting position in our team since he joined. At the end of the day, what happens on the pitch on game day is what matters most. We've all seen Batshuayi work intensely off the pitch - including hitting the gym after games. Does that mean he should command a regular start in our side over Morata? 

Training hard obviously plays a part and puts you in a better position to be selected, but it's not the be all and end all of it. Talent and ability is often going to outweigh what's on the training park. Unless a player is seriously not applying themselves at all - then it may likely change.

You can't blame a clearly young talented player for wanting to play. KdB played a whole 132 minutes of EPL football in his 3 appearances for us and was then cast aside. Given, he had quality players ahead of him he was still good enough and talented enough to feature more than the 3 times he did.

Keep in mind this isn't the first time we've seen this exact same situation - low and beyond they've been predominately all under one particular manager. Lukaku played 158 minutes of league football for us before being sent out on loan where he impressed at WBA. He then returned to play 41 minutes before his eventual loan and sale to Everton. A grand total of 199 minutes across 1 league start and 9 sub appearances. Salah was another - he picked up 6 starts and 7 sub appearances for his 531 minutes of league football for us before we shipped him off to Fiorentina where he also impressed. Which lead to his eventual loan and sale to Roma - again after another fine season. How about the case of Juan Cuadrado. A key player at Fiorentina and on the back of an impressive WC showing, we sign him and he goes on to play 338 minutes in the league across his 4 starts and 9 sub appearances before being shipped off to Juventus on loan - where he also impressed before completing a permanent transfer. 

It's hard to not be frustrated to then see these same players we've failed to really accomodate with genuine opportunity and patience go on to become very good players elsewhere. Not to mention it has made us, as a club, look a little ridiculous in the process.

That said, what's done is done. Can only hope a lesson has been learnt from it all.

You seem to be answering your own question here as neither KdB, Lukaku nor Salah exactly commanded repeat performances when they did get a chance. When all is said and done I'm still quite relaxed about getting rid of Lukaku and it was just a bit of a shame that Salah and KdB didn't produce the goods when they were at SB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
paulw66   
On 12/19/2017 at 0:39 PM, Sleeping Dave said:

You are just randomply plucking names out of a hat. Rashford is a much better player today compared to when José took over. Smalling? He was always useless and I have no idea who Dave is. But considering that José has improved United from 1.61 pts/game after 18 games in 2015-16 to 2.28 pts/game after 18 games in 2017-18 he must be doing something right. 

 

Regarding Bats... He's just as useless today as he was when he was signed. I can't see any improvement whatsoever and I don't think Conte sees it either considering he's got a grand total of 469 PL minutes over a season and a half. That's roughly 5 full PL games in 16 months. Roughly what KDB amassed in his first 6 weeks at the club. Yet your conclusion is that KDB never got a chance here while Conte is improving Bats. 

It's hard to have a sensible discussion about this (as I hope you can see from the last example).

 

In resepct of the first bolded bit, what Jose has done right is buy very good players who cost a lot of money. Pogba, Matic, Lukak......in excess of £200m on 3 players. Of course their points per game would improve

On the KDB bit, I am not going to get into a silly argument but he played a grand total of 132 minutes of PL football for us. He never got a proper chance, and with the talent he has, is poor management. I love(d) Jose, but he got that one badly wrong IMO. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now