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paulw66   
2 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I did think that when Pulisic was signed so long ago and immediately loaned that they'd caught wind of something so maybe CAS won't intervene ?

Possibly. I remember when we signed Robben and Cech, those deals were announced in Jan but the players didn't transfer until the summer, they werent loaned back. 

With Zouma, he was signed and loaned back mid season, much like Pulisic, so I don't know if this was just a change of policy 

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11 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

Depends on which side of the fence you sit on I suppose. For me, his inability to perform his primary job of defending consistently enough is a worry. He has subsequently showcased on numerous occasions this season how much of a liability he can be - most recently in the Frankfurt game in which we was at fault for their goal. 

Makes you wonder why someone bought him aged 30.

1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

Possibly. I remember when we signed Robben and Cech, those deals were announced in Jan but the players didn't transfer until the summer, they werent loaned back. 

I think it is quite a common thing to do, for a lot of clubs.  In our case we rightly were more concerned about next year's squad than this year (where we have too many players and were never challenging for the PL or CL).  The sellers get to plan, and get a known amount rather than have to hope he keeps on performing to maintain his value..
And Summer deals are often pre-arranged as early as February, so getting a buy and loan back deal in January is nor much different.

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jones   
15 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

I can understand the reasoning given our situation, however on the flip side there's the fact he's 32 and not the future of the club no matter how you look at it. With the club in the precarious situation it is currently, I'd prefer us to have a longer view in the room and aim to develop a partnership that can be more long term. It's easier to sit through and justify say Christensen making the mistakes Luiz does than a 32 year old seasoned professional who is the first to pass the buck. 

Luiz has a career trajectory that's only going to go south, and if we're going to persist with him for the next 12-24 months as a first choice option that's a huge worry.

Just like Luiz is being underrated by most of our fans, Christensen is being overrated. One of the few things Sarri has been spot on about is using Rudiger + Luiz, and having Christensen as CB3. That does not mean either of them are world class, but Luiz’ standing in the team and in the sport is a big asset people tend to ignore. He is being idolised by many, and is one of few leaders in the squad. Maybe not your typical captain, but someone who takes care of and motivates many of the young players. Not enough to warrant a new contract alone, but surely part of the reason why extending his stay makes sense.

Oh, and for me, Christensen needs to earn his starting spot on merit, just like CHO and RLC did this season. To do that, he needs to take another step. 

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xCELERYx   
5 hours ago, jones said:

Just like Luiz is being underrated by most of our fans, Christensen is being overrated. One of the few things Sarri has been spot on about is using Rudiger + Luiz, and having Christensen as CB3. That does not mean either of them are world class, but Luiz’ standing in the team and in the sport is a big asset people tend to ignore. He is being idolised by many, and is one of few leaders in the squad. Maybe not your typical captain, but someone who takes care of and motivates many of the young players. Not enough to warrant a new contract alone, but surely part of the reason why extending his stay makes sense.

Oh, and for me, Christensen needs to earn his starting spot on merit, just like CHO and RLC did this season. To do that, he needs to take another step. 

All I said was that it would be easier to justify the type of mistakes Luiz makes if they were to come from a younger CB. Christensen just happened to be an example provided because he's currently around the playing group and the most likely to step in. 

When you have a senior CB who is unreliable from a defensive aspect as Luiz is, it's difficult to justify his position in the side let alone a two year extension, transfer ban or not. I'd preference seeing that time, trust and development being put into a younger player. Sure, they'll also make mistakes. They just become more justifiable when it's a 22 year old CB or so making them, opposed to someone who is 32 and should know a lot better. Some of the poor decisions and positioning Luiz has demonstrated this season has been inexcusable for a player who has played at the level he has. . 

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xCELERYx   
11 hours ago, paulw66 said:

You seem to be failing to grasp the obvious point being made. Irrespective of how good one thinks Luiz is, if we cannot sign any new players in the summer or January, then I think one has to accept we need to keep hold of him. Luiz therefore holds all the cards, and I suspect he found it easy to negotiate a 2 year deal by saying he would not sign a one year one. 

The long term future he is not, but without any new signings, the immediate future, he most certainly has to be. 

That point hasn't been lost. I've addressed this in a number of prior posts, even during the season when discussing the clubs future direction moving forward. Transfer ban or not, I'd not have extended Luiz's deal either way. I simply don't believe he deserves a new contract. In my opinion, along with the position the club currently finds itself, I'd prefer us to have a real focus on using the circumstances to put significantly more faith in a younger core of players. I'd rather sit through a season of inconsistency knowing that we're providing the young talent we have with invaluable senior football to aid their development. In doing so it may just help fast track a couple of players, maybe we'll unearth a stud in the process. Worst case is we can put a line through those who simply don't turn out to be good enough and move them on for solid financial compensation. 

This squad needs an overhaul. The prospect of seeing unreliable players like Luiz still being focal points of the side does little to encourage - short or long term.

 

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52 minutes ago, xCELERYx said:

Transfer ban or not, I'd not have extended Luiz's deal either way. I simply don't believe he deserves a new contract. In my opinion, along with the position the club currently finds itself, I'd prefer us to have a real focus on using the circumstances to put significantly more faith in a younger core of players

Rudiger Christensen and Guehi for next season?

Out of interest - what did Luiz do to offend your Dad so much?

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5 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Rudiger Christensen and Guehi for next season?

Out of interest - what did Luiz do to offend your Dad so much?

I realise you may be deliberately exaggerating, but I think that Zouma, Ampadu and Tomori would be the best options if the club were to use the transfer ban to integrate young players.

Luiz should not be a regular next season. I'd like him to be more of a club cheerleader - like Zola or Cudicini but with a playing contract still.

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jones   
6 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

That point hasn't been lost. I've addressed this in a number of prior posts, even during the season when discussing the clubs future direction moving forward. Transfer ban or not, I'd not have extended Luiz's deal either way. I simply don't believe he deserves a new contract. In my opinion, along with the position the club currently finds itself, I'd prefer us to have a real focus on using the circumstances to put significantly more faith in a younger core of players. I'd rather sit through a season of inconsistency knowing that we're providing the young talent we have with invaluable senior football to aid their development. In doing so it may just help fast track a couple of players, maybe we'll unearth a stud in the process. Worst case is we can put a line through those who simply don't turn out to be good enough and move them on for solid financial compensation. 

This squad needs an overhaul. The prospect of seeing unreliable players like Luiz still being focal points of the side does little to encourage - short or long term.

 

While I am totally with you on building a new core with many of the young players, we disagree on Luiz. Having some form of consistency in experience and leadership in the transition we hopefully will go thorugh over the next 2-3 years is absolutely key from a risk point of view. I am not too fussed about us ending 6th next season if the likes of James, Mount, Tammy + a couple of other academy players have been vital squad players and seen massive development. But what if we sell too many of the experienced players and end up 12th while the hype on said players have quickly fallen? Where do we go from there, and what is left? 

While Pedro, Willian, Luiz et al is often ridiculed, they are PL and CL winners with 50+ caps for the best national teams in the world, and despite their flaws have gone through highs and lows, and will bring calmness and confidence when things go bad. You have no guarantee these massively talented young players will not buckle under the pressure of carrying the responsibility of Chelsea Football Club in our first season without Eden Hazard. 

Start the transition now, but do not risk the club’s future by putting too much pressure on young players.

Luiz is not the perfect player, but he is the perfect person to have around as we rebuild step by step. And seeing how Christensen reacts to errors (still not recovered from Barcelona) vs how Luiz reacts, for me it is dead clear who I want to put my trust in.

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2 hours ago, chiswickblue said:

I realise you may be deliberately exaggerating, but I think that Zouma, Ampadu and Tomori would be the best options if the club were to use the transfer ban to integrate young players.

Luiz should not be a regular next season. I'd like him to be more of a club cheerleader - like Zola or Cudicini but with a playing contract still.

or rather like Captains Terry and Cahill (or hopefully Cech).  
IMO Zouma would be a disaster in a Sarri or Conte team, constantly caught out on the ball.  While Ampadu is several years short of being PL ready (not a criticism).  
I reckon if you started the season with Rudiger first choice, Christensen 2nd, and Zouma or Tomori as 3d, then 4th choice Luiz would pretty soon be starting regularly with Rudiger.

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BlueFizz   
3 hours ago, chiswickblue said:

I realise you may be deliberately exaggerating, but I think that Zouma, Ampadu and Tomori would be the best options if the club were to use the transfer ban to integrate young players.

Luiz should not be a regular next season. I'd like him to be more of a club cheerleader - like Zola or Cudicini but with a playing contract still.

Luiz is a great defender and passer, to my mind. He gets a lot of flack because his mistakes (and all CBs make them, even the saintly VVD at Liverpool) are 1. relatively few and 2. often a bit spectacular in nature (as Gary Neville so famously pointed out!). Consequently, his errors receive the same scrutiny as goalkeepers' do, which is unusual for an outfield player.

I think he also brings character and personality to the team (and from what I've read) to the squad off the field.

I'm glad he's staying - but would be glad to see us add to our CB options - a fit Ampadu and one from Zouma or Tomori. My hunch is we'll give Tomori one more year at Derby if they win promotion, but bring him back if they don't.

As to who is a regular - that should be based solely on personal form and fit in the line-up. 

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