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xCELERYx   
1 hour ago, Blue_In_Every_Way said:

If most of the players are going to be staying for next year, then that can only strengthen Sarri’s case. Afterall, this guy got this squad into the top 4 and made 2 finals. 

This isn’t Antonio Conte’s Chelsea supposedly dropping like a rock because of fatigue from competing in European competition. This is a Chelsea squad that’s been playing in Europe and went deep in the Carabao Cup too and STILL held it together in the league. 

The major determinant of “progression” is going to involve the transfer market and we still don’t know if that’s going to be available to us. 

On paper it may read like that, but let's not get carried away and start claiming that Sarri, and our performances, were the main reason behind those outcomes either. 

From the start of 2019 until the end of the season our form was virtually the equivalent of a mid-table side. Our 2019 form would have had us finish 6th overall - collecting 29 points from our 18 games. A whole 3 points better off than 10th placed Tottenham. Even a team like Southampton collected 24 points in that same 5 month period and good enough for 14th place. If it wasn't for the sheer fact that our home form actually stood up and was maintained (21 of our 29 points were earned at home) it could looked even worse. So some credit should go to both Sarri and the players for at least holding it down at home. 

The last month and a bit (April 1st - May 13th) of the PL season is what really defined things. We took 12 points from our 7 games, which was good enough for the 5th best return in that period of time. Thankfully for us both Arsenal and Tottenham only collected 10 points from their 8 games played in that same span of time - leaving them ranked 9th and 10th. Man Utd on the other hand collected an embarrassing 5 points from their last 7 games, which was good enough for 18th. If it wasn't for the sheer inability of the other sides around us to close out the season, we'd have been long out of the hunt for a top four position. I don't think you can really credit Sarri with masterminding our top four finish when the failure of the other clubs around us being a greater deciding factor. 

As for the Europa League. Did you see our fixtures? Not a single competitive team faced until Frankfurt in the semi-final. It would have been a complete disaster had we not made the final with the sort of draw we were handed. Even then, we still only managed to edge past Frankfurt on penalties after another unconvincing performance was put on display. We had one competitive team to face and we still nearly botched it. Arsenal had to play Rennes, Napoli and Valencia on their run to the final. Frankfurt had a hard run from start to finish with the likes of Marseille, Lazio, Shakhtar, Inter Milan and Benfica all having to be faced before reaching the semi-final against us. Even Valencia had to face Celtic, Villarreal and Arsenal after dropping out of the Champions League. Yet, Sarri's getting plaudits for guiding us to the final after having to face powerhouses such as POAK, Vidi, Bate, Malmo, Dynamo Kyiv and Slavia Prague before Frankfurt in the semi. 

Of course, one can only face what's put in front of them. That being said, there's only so much praise you can lay forth when the path travelled wasn't exactly challenging to begin with.

The League Cup run was, at least for me, the most impressive of our achievements. There was a good win vs Liverpool, a couple iffy performances against Derby, Bournemouth and the first leg vs Tottenham. However, there was fight shown in the second leg vs Tottenham to get back into the game and get by on penalties, but also the spirited effort in the final vs Man City. Which was one of our best performances of the season as a whole (save for what we may see in the Europa final). 

I think it's fair to say that this season has been one of the most divided in the RA era, with both sides having very different opinions on the nature of this season overall. 

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2 minutes ago, xCELERYx said:

On paper it may read like that, but let's not get carried away and start claiming that Sarri, and our performances, were the main reason behind those outcomes either. 

From the start of 2019 until the end of the season our form was virtually the equivalent of a mid-table side. Our 2019 form would have had us finish 6th overall - collecting 29 points from our 18 games. A whole 3 points better off than 10th placed Tottenham. Even a team like Southampton collected 24 points in that same 5 month period and good enough for 14th place. If it wasn't for the sheer fact that our home form actually stood up and was maintained (21 of our 29 points were earned at home) it could looked even worse. So some credit should go to both Sarri and the players for at least holding it down at home. 

The last month and a bit (April 1st - May 13th) of the PL season is what really defined things. We took 12 points from our 7 games, which was good enough for the 5th best return in that period of time. Thankfully for us both Arsenal and Tottenham only collected 10 points from their 8 games played in that same span of time - leaving them ranked 9th and 10th. Man Utd on the other hand collected an embarrassing 5 points from their last 7 games, which was good enough for 18th. If it wasn't for the sheer inability of the other sides around us to close out the season, we'd have been long out of the hunt for a top four position. I don't think you can really credit Sarri with masterminding our top four finish when the failure of the other clubs around us being a greater deciding factor. 

As for the Europa League. Did you see our fixtures? Not a single competitive team faced until Frankfurt in the semi-final. It would have been a complete disaster had we not made the final with the sort of draw we were handed. Even then, we still only managed to edge past Frankfurt on penalties after another unconvincing performance was put on display. We had one competitive team to face and we still nearly botched it. Arsenal had to play Rennes, Napoli and Valencia on their run to the final. Frankfurt had a hard run from start to finish with the likes of Marseille, Lazio, Shakhtar, Inter Milan and Benfica all having to be faced before reaching the semi-final against us. Even Valencia had to face Celtic, Villarreal and Arsenal after dropping out of the Champions League. Yet, Sarri's getting plaudits for guiding us to the final after having to face powerhouses such as POAK, Vidi, Bate, Malmo, Dynamo Kyiv and Slavia Prague before Frankfurt in the semi. 

Of course, one can only face what's put in front of them. That being said, there's only so much praise you can lay forth when the path travelled wasn't exactly challenging to begin with.

The League Cup run was, at least for me, the most impressive of our achievements. There was a good win vs Liverpool, a couple iffy performances against Derby, Bournemouth and the first leg vs Tottenham. However, there was fight shown in the second leg vs Tottenham to get back into the game and get by on penalties, but also the spirited effort in the final vs Man City. Which was one of our best performances of the season as a whole (save for what we may see in the Europa final). 

I think it's fair to say that this season has been one of the most divided in the RA era, with both sides having very different opinions on the nature of this season overall. 

But this is the Premier League, not the Serie A. Here you have 20 good teams who can all beat and win against anyone. 

This season has proved that more than anything else. So your mid-table argument has to be held in that light. Why else could four teams finish 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th by being mid table standard for half a season? No matter how much you want to discredit Sarri we were still the third best team in England and he did reach two cup finals. 

After all, we’re not really hearing from you that Conte needed a replay against Norwich (which we won on penalties) to get out of the third round in the FA Cup and then proceeded to knock out Newcastle, Hull, Leicester and Southampton before facing Man U in the final...

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5 hours ago, Blue_In_Every_Way said:

If most of the players are going to be staying for next year, then that can only strengthen Sarri’s case. Afterall, this guy got this squad into the top 4 and made 2 finals. 

This isn’t Antonio Conte’s Chelsea supposedly dropping like a rock because of fatigue from competing in European competition. This is a Chelsea squad that’s been playing in Europe and went deep in the Carabao Cup too and STILL held it together in the league. 

The major determinant of “progression” is going to involve the transfer market and we still don’t know if that’s going to be available to us. 

This relies on our rivals for top four stagnating and not progressing either, which given they will have access to the transfer market and we are most likely losing Hazard, would be a complacent and dangerous attitude. We also won't be playing the likes of Malmo etc in Europe next year so a repeat of the finals is not on the cards, and we won't have the luxury of playing a B team. You are saying we need to replace all those players in order to see improvement next season, even without a transfer ban that is unlikely. Applying logic to your statement the only other avenue is to change the style of play to suit those players, something Sarri wont do. Does that strengthen Sarri's case? I'm not saying we should sack Sarri, he deserves another season and it would be harsh, I'm pointing out the conundrum we are in where I don't see how we move forward. Also I don't agree that all of the blame falls at the players feet.

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paulw66   
3 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

On paper it may read like that, but let's not get carried away and start claiming that Sarri, and our performances, were the main reason behind those outcomes either. 

From the start of 2019 until the end of the season our form was virtually the equivalent of a mid-table side. Our 2019 form would have had us finish 6th overall - collecting 29 points from our 18 games. A whole 3 points better off than 10th placed Tottenham. Even a team like Southampton collected 24 points in that same 5 month period and good enough for 14th place. If it wasn't for the sheer fact that our home form actually stood up and was maintained (21 of our 29 points were earned at home) it could looked even worse. So some credit should go to both Sarri and the players for at least holding it down at home. 

The last month and a bit (April 1st - May 13th) of the PL season is what really defined things. We took 12 points from our 7 games, which was good enough for the 5th best return in that period of time. Thankfully for us both Arsenal and Tottenham only collected 10 points from their 8 games played in that same span of time - leaving them ranked 9th and 10th. Man Utd on the other hand collected an embarrassing 5 points from their last 7 games, which was good enough for 18th. If it wasn't for the sheer inability of the other sides around us to close out the season, we'd have been long out of the hunt for a top four position. I don't think you can really credit Sarri with masterminding our top four finish when the failure of the other clubs around us being a greater deciding factor. 

 

Thank goodness the league works like that too. The final table on paper is what dictactes who finishes where. 

Of course we got less points in the second half of the season - we had Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Everton, Leicester and Man utd away, so 6 out of the best 8 (excluding us) away from home, plus progress in the EL*

Spurs and Arsenal both petered away - small squads, and European progress. United's decline was the real bonus.

* not saying we had it tough in the EL, but even with easy games, we still had key players involved, and travelling abroad, as opposed to staying at Cobham and preparing for the next game. There was one week we played Monday, rest day Tuesday, travel Wednesday, EL away game Thursday, travel back friday, then travel to away game Saturday for a Sunday kick off. Even if that Thursday game is a walk in the park, there is zero prep time for the Sunday away game. 

 

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7 hours ago, Blue_In_Every_Way said:

If Juan Mata is available on a free, and if we can sign players, I hope that the club would capitalize on bringing him back.

Intelligent player, moves off the ball, technically gifted, proven in this league - would be an ideal player to rotate in and out of games. Could be good value for money. 

He'll certainly feel at home alongside Willian, Giroud, Higuain and Pedro - they are all 31 or 32.  If Hazard goes, the next oldest is Pulisic, 20.  So much for pressing.  I wonder what the secret of the gegenpress at liverpool or City is.

4 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

On paper it may read like that, but let's not get carried away and start claiming that Sarri, and our performances, were the main reason behind those outcomes either. 

No it couldn't have been the performances which got us where we finished.  That wouldn't fit the agenda.  Obstruction!!  People's Vote.

5 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

From the start of 2019 until the end of the season our form was virtually the equivalent of a mid-table side. Our 2019 form would....

The thing about our form is that it was extraordinarily consistent throughout.  We consistently beat the teams below us at home, and either won or drew away.
We consistently struggled against top 6 teams.  There were only two games that went significantly against form all season - the loss at Bournemouth and the win at home to City.

But if that doesn't suit the agenda, you'll have to try and argue that mini-runs of results somehow mean something.

 

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5 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

On paper it may read like that, but let's not get carried away and start claiming that Sarri, and our performances, were the main reason behind those outcomes either. 

From the start of 2019 until the end of the season our form was virtually the equivalent of a mid-table side. Our 2019 form would have had us finish 6th overall - collecting 29 points from our 18 games. A whole 3 points better off than 10th placed Tottenham. Even a team like Southampton collected 24 points in that same 5 month period and good enough for 14th place. If it wasn't for the sheer fact that our home form actually stood up and was maintained (21 of our 29 points were earned at home) it could looked even worse. So some credit should go to both Sarri and the players for at least holding it down at home. 

The last month and a bit (April 1st - May 13th) of the PL season is what really defined things. We took 12 points from our 7 games, which was good enough for the 5th best return in that period of time. Thankfully for us both Arsenal and Tottenham only collected 10 points from their 8 games played in that same span of time - leaving them ranked 9th and 10th. Man Utd on the other hand collected an embarrassing 5 points from their last 7 games, which was good enough for 18th. If it wasn't for the sheer inability of the other sides around us to close out the season, we'd have been long out of the hunt for a top four position. I don't think you can really credit Sarri with masterminding our top four finish when the failure of the other clubs around us being a greater deciding factor. 

As for the Europa League. Did you see our fixtures? Not a single competitive team faced until Frankfurt in the semi-final. It would have been a complete disaster had we not made the final with the sort of draw we were handed. Even then, we still only managed to edge past Frankfurt on penalties after another unconvincing performance was put on display. We had one competitive team to face and we still nearly botched it. Arsenal had to play Rennes, Napoli and Valencia on their run to the final. Frankfurt had a hard run from start to finish with the likes of Marseille, Lazio, Shakhtar, Inter Milan and Benfica all having to be faced before reaching the semi-final against us. Even Valencia had to face Celtic, Villarreal and Arsenal after dropping out of the Champions League. Yet, Sarri's getting plaudits for guiding us to the final after having to face powerhouses such as POAK, Vidi, Bate, Malmo, Dynamo Kyiv and Slavia Prague before Frankfurt in the semi. 

Of course, one can only face what's put in front of them. That being said, there's only so much praise you can lay forth when the path travelled wasn't exactly challenging to begin with.

The League Cup run was, at least for me, the most impressive of our achievements. There was a good win vs Liverpool, a couple iffy performances against Derby, Bournemouth and the first leg vs Tottenham. However, there was fight shown in the second leg vs Tottenham to get back into the game and get by on penalties, but also the spirited effort in the final vs Man City. Which was one of our best performances of the season as a whole (save for what we may see in the Europa final). 

I think it's fair to say that this season has been one of the most divided in the RA era, with both sides having very different opinions on the nature of this season overall. 

12 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

The thing about our form is that it was extraordinarily consistent throughout.  We consistently beat the teams below us at home, and either won or drew away.
We consistently struggled against top 6 teams.  There were only two games that went significantly against form all season - the loss at Bournemouth and the win at home to City.

But if that doesn't suit the agenda, you'll have to try and argue that mini-runs of results somehow mean something.

 

Quoting this just so Celery will see it as it is the perfect response and absolutely spot on.

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28 minutes ago, Martin1905 said:

Quoting this just so Celery will see it as it is the perfect response and absolutely spot on.

Thanks - and to add, pretty much the core definition of "good players, bad manager" is a multiple defeats to lower teams, and surprising victories against good ones.

Our results are very much the opposite to that.........

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5 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

As for the Europa League. Did you see our fixtures? Not a single competitive team faced until Frankfurt in the semi-final. It would have been a complete disaster had we not made the final with the sort of draw we were handed. Even then, we still only managed to edge past Frankfurt on penalties after another unconvincing performance was put on display. We had one competitive team to face and we still nearly botched it. 

image.png.5351ff1cc015cb9bf5edc73d6c976b79.png

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4 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

image.png.5351ff1cc015cb9bf5edc73d6c976b79.png

**** it , lets lynch Conte and take that totally undeserved trophy off of him .

Edited by Mark Kelly

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paulw66   
1 minute ago, Mark Kelly said:

**** it , lets lynch Conte and take that totally undeserved trophy off of him .

of course, take it to extremes, but the point being made is that if Sarri is going to be beaten with the "well we won the EL, but we have only beaten rubbish" stick, then the same can apply to Conte 

Sarri can only beat the teams he has played 

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