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bert19   
33 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

We know how he feels. Feel a little for Moses here though as 5 minutes earlier he laid on the winner (just not for Lukaku)

It was a good cross too.  Clever turn/shimmy and picking the lad out at the far post with his left foot.  Decent assist.

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2 hours ago, RobertoftheGiz said:

Havertz is only 20. Should the club buy him I doubt he will be flogged to death playing twice a week whenever Europe kicks in.

Although I hate to admit it there are times when a more mature team is required for certain match to follow specific instructions e.g. "Team which played Chity"

Mason Mount was only 20 and he has been flogged to death this season (and last in the Championship by the same manager).
Front 3 + the most attacking CM we would have Werner, Abraham, Pulisic, Ziyech, with Mount, CHO, Giroud, and probably Willian pushing them for places (3 of them club trained).  Add in Havertz and I don't see many games  for anyone else.

1 hour ago, Ham said:

Victor Moses is frustrating Lukaku.... 👀

 

There was a jokey piece in the Times today about how we are getting some class swearing in multilingual argot on our TVs and don't even know it.

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5 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Mason Mount was only 20 and he has been flogged to death this season (and last in the Championship by the same manager).

 Probably more to do with the squad the manager inherited, and that Mount was more familiar with the Managers ethos.

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paulw66   

Wasn't sure where to put this, but I see Barcelona and Juve are doing a swap, Arthur for Pjanic plus 10m. This is clear way of cooking the FFP books to suit short team needs by over inflating the values on both players, and got me thinking how easy it is to do this.

Let me explain further, particularly for those who don't get how ins and outs work with regards to FFP.

If a club buys a player for £50m on a 4 year contract, it is accounted for as £12,5m per season for each of four years of his contrac (forget about cashflow and whether or not it is paid in instalments). When you sell a player, you get the full benefit in the current FY. 

So, in the above example, if you sell the player after 2 years, for £60m, you have accounted for 2 years of the fee when you bought him, and there are two remaining years left. So the income is +£60m less the £25m unaccounted for, so your books show +35m.

If you do a swap deal, and let's say like in this example, one player is worth 10m more than the other, if you need a short term gain for FFP reasons,  just inflate the values, because you realise the full value of the sale right now, and you spread the inflated cost of the incoming transfer over the term of the contract. So Barcelona are selling Arthur for 70m which will show in this coming FY (less any unaccounted value) and the expense of 60m for Pjanic is then spread over 3 or 4 years. If they had said Arthur was worth 30m and Pjanic was 20m, it has the same cashflow impact, but in year 1, Barca would only account the +30m and not the 70m.

Edit - and likewise, Juve are accounting for the 70m over 4 or 5 years, but getting +60m right now. It's like a payday loan but without the interest 

Confused?

Edited by paulw66

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17 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Wasn't sure where to put this, but I see Barcelona and Juve are doing a swap, Arthur for Pjanic plus 10m. This is clear way of cooking the FFP books to suit short team needs by over inflating the values on both players, and got me thinking how easy it is to do this.

Let me explain further, particularly for those who don't get how ins and outs work with regards to FFP.....

But then FFP figures are averaged out over 3 years so most of that effect is blurred.  At annual result level the net effect might be  + £60m in year one is followed by 3 £20m losses.  But averaged for FFP the net effect becomes:
+£20m;  +£13m, +£7m, -£20m, £-13m, -£7m.

They aren't big numbers even on a massively inflated fee.
Then UEFA can chose to assume the numbers were inflated and correct with more normal numbers.

And UEFA have it in their rules that losses above the limits can be accepted if there is a clear plan to bring back matching profits afterwards so the exercise would be unnecessary anyway.
In essence the whole "lets play games with timings through asset purchases and depreciation" has always been overrated - FinancialDirector09 was only published for a year or two and then people stopped playing.

Plus FFP is closed - my guess is closed for 3 or 4 years or at least till they find a way of stopping RA pumping money into the club which doesn't prevent other clubs from being bailed out of bankruptcy.
 

I should add that the real problem of big teams now is paying the wage bill.  A distorted swap deal does nothing to help that.  Only owners with big pockets can solve that problem, or large scale sales of players at rock bottom prices.
The advantages of barter deals (swaps) are that it takes away the problem of pricing players in an unstable market - they just have to agree on the difference; teams can evolve without taking a guess at where the market level is; and neither side has to put big cash up front.

 

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5 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Wasn't sure where to put this, but I see Barcelona and Juve are doing a swap, Arthur for Pjanic plus 10m. This is clear way of cooking the FFP books to suit short team needs by over inflating the values on both players, and got me thinking how easy it is to do this.

Let me explain further, particularly for those who don't get how ins and outs work with regards to FFP.

If a club buys a player for £50m on a 4 year contract, it is accounted for as £12,5m per season for each of four years of his contrac (forget about cashflow and whether or not it is paid in instalments). When you sell a player, you get the full benefit in the current FY. 

So, in the above example, if you sell the player after 2 years, for £60m, you have accounted for 2 years of the fee when you bought him, and there are two remaining years left. So the income is +£60m less the £25m unaccounted for, so your books show +35m.

If you do a swap deal, and let's say like in this example, one player is worth 10m more than the other, if you need a short term gain for FFP reasons,  just inflate the values, because you realise the full value of the sale right now, and you spread the inflated cost of the incoming transfer over the term of the contract. So Barcelona are selling Arthur for 70m which will show in this coming FY (less any unaccounted value) and the expense of 60m for Pjanic is then spread over 3 or 4 years. If they had said Arthur was worth 30m and Pjanic was 20m, it has the same cashflow impact, but in year 1, Barca would only account the +30m and not the 70m.

Edit - and likewise, Juve are accounting for the 70m over 4 or 5 years, but getting +60m right now. It's like a payday loan but without the interest 

Confused?

And here is the problem. Rich club owners employ better lawyers than uefa and fifa want to employ

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16 hours ago, bert19 said:

It was a good cross too.  Clever turn/shimmy and picking the lad out at the far post with his left foot.  Decent assist.

never liked that aspect about lukaku. looks a big whinger to me

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paulw66   
14 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

But then FFP figures are averaged out over 3 years so most of that effect is blurred.  At annual result level the net effect might be  + £60m in year one is followed by 3 £20m losses.  But averaged for FFP the net effect becomes:
+£20m;  +£13m, +£7m, -£20m, £-13m, -£7m.

They aren't big numbers even on a massively inflated fee.
Then UEFA can chose to assume the numbers were inflated and correct with more normal numbers.

And UEFA have it in their rules that losses above the limits can be accepted if there is a clear plan to bring back matching profits afterwards so the exercise would be unnecessary anyway.
In essence the whole "lets play games with timings through asset purchases and depreciation" has always been overrated - FinancialDirector09 was only published for a year or two and then people stopped playing.

Plus FFP is closed - my guess is closed for 3 or 4 years or at least till they find a way of stopping RA pumping money into the club which doesn't prevent other clubs from being bailed out of bankruptcy.
 

I should add that the real problem of big teams now is paying the wage bill.  A distorted swap deal does nothing to help that.  Only owners with big pockets can solve that problem, or large scale sales of players at rock bottom prices.
The advantages of barter deals (swaps) are that it takes away the problem of pricing players in an unstable market - they just have to agree on the difference; teams can evolve without taking a guess at where the market level is; and neither side has to put big cash up front.

 

I realise they aren't big numbers, it is a way of manipulating the data slightly, if for one year, you are a few million short of where you need to be. 

I agree it is also a good way to reduce the worry on where the natural market position is in terms of fees. Expect this window we will see more of these type deals, and definitely more loans. 

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6 hours ago, kennypaul said:

never liked that aspect about lukaku. looks a big whinger to me

Having said that, am I the only one who has noticed this big time about Tammy since the restart? I'm not sure if I just missed it before or things were simply going better for him early in the season, but every time we go forward and he doesn't get the ball he's screaming, throwing his arms around etc. I find it very unlikeable.

I wondered if he's feeling frustrated or the pressure with his goals drying up a bit and the spectre of Werner looming over him for next season...

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paulw66   
3 minutes ago, FrankLampard8 said:

Having said that, am I the only one who has noticed this big time about Tammy since the restart? I'm not sure if I just missed it before or things were simply going better for him early in the season, but every time we go forward and he doesn't get the ball he's screaming, throwing his arms around etc. I find it very unlikeable.

I wondered if he's feeling frustrated or the pressure with his goals drying up a bit and the spectre of Werner looming over him for next season...

I have no problem with a CF demanding the ball and wanting to score. 

it is when they start hiding out on the wing, and not getting into position is when you want to worry. 

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