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4 hours ago, Willian Dollar Baby said:

For the Jorginho haters, not sure Declan Rice is the answer to any questions. A bit like Dier he looks like a CB in midfield however with his lack of experience at the back I doubt he's an upgrade there either. These stats back up the eye test thats he's a decent shield but certainly no world class DM and I can't see him having the quality on the ball to be a long-term success. I'm certainly hoping that the Sarri exit will mean we get to keep Jorginho another year. Would love to see him surrounded by quality forwards on his wavelength. A goalkeeper, defensive coach and if there's any spare change, a left back should be the priorities this summer. 

20200813_111504.jpg

 

2 hours ago, Willian Dollar Baby said:

Your right it's never easy to do a direct comparison and you have to bear in mind the context when looking through the stats. Usually you would expect to see the player at the lesser club with higher tackles/interceptions given they will be out of possession for longer. What that does highlight is how much unsung work Jorginho is doing especially from a possession stand point. People suggesting you can replace a quality, experienced 28 year old DM with a 21 year old who is not setting the league on fire may end up disappointed when the team suffers. That's not to say Rice can't grow but at the prices it will cost I would expect something closer to the finished product. 

You make some good points. However, like Paul66 says below...

2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

If we are going to continue with a system where our FBs are playing as auxilary wingers, then the DM needs to be more mobile to cover. If that means playing 2 deep, Jorgi and Kante for example, then fine.

I think a 4231 formation with two of Kanté, Jorginho and Kovacic sitting with Pulisic, Havertz and Ziyech in front of them could be balanced enough. 

22 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

If Havertz comes, he'll be wide right (Willian) rather than alongside Mount like Barkley/Loftus-Cheek/Kovacic

I love Kanté but he's started to look a little less 'dynamic' these days... maybe, at 29, it's time to cash in if suitable offers come in? I imagine Jorginho is the next most likely to leave of those four you mention.
 

I'm under the impression that Havertz is an AM first and foremost that can also play on the wing. Much like Mount or Werner can play LW or Ziyech CM/AMC. 

Personally I think that we will see;

-------------------------------Werner

Pulisic-------------------Havertz-----------------Ziyech

As the starting front four with;

-----------------------------Abraham

Hudson-Odoi---------Mount-------------Loftus-Cheek

as teh back-ups.

Midfield:

Jorginho/Kanté/Kovacic/Barkley/Gilmour

Defense is anyones guess at this point. 

 

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1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

You would actually buy him?

I get that one might pick him over Kepa, but is that the bar for a replacement?

Actually , yes , he's massively improved from his Gooner days , also forgot about Antonio , he'd be a good acquisition. 

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52 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

isn't that where Ziyech is lned up to play?

If we play 4-3-3 I see the following:

Pulisic - Werner - Havertz

with

Hudson-Odoi - Abraham/Giroud - Ziyech

as back ups.

Given, barring injuries, the two wide players are the most often substituted, we need 4 with as little drop-off in quality as possible.
Mount will be the more attacking/creative of the three behind.

If we play 4-2-3-1 it'll be as above, but with Mount in the '10' role much of the time.

I may be entirely wrong, but based on their speed, crossing/passing, creativity, finishing, etc., that to me seems the most obvious choice.

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paulw66   
8 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Actually , yes , he's massively improved from his Gooner days , also forgot about Antonio , he'd be a good acquisition. 

Very amusing 

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Flinkers   
8 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Actually , yes , he's massively improved from his Gooner days , also forgot about Antonio , he'd be a good acquisition. 

I'd also take Sebastien Haller off their hands.

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5 minutes ago, Flinkers said:

I'd also take Sebastien Haller off their hands.

Flinkers, am I right in saying you watch a lot of Bundesliga?

What's your view on Havertz ?

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Flinkers   
Just now, Martin1905 said:

Flinkers, am I right in saying you watch a lot of Bundesliga?

What's your view on Havertz ?

A lot is overstating things - don't have much time with two young kids!

Having said that, I think we'd be pretty silly not to sign Havertz. He's comfortably one of the best players in the league already and has really stepped up his goals and assists since Bosz arrived in Leverkusen. Bosz tends to play a pretty aggressive, attacking style, so maybe that's why..? He's got great technique like most young Germans do, he gets himself into great positions on the field, seems to get open a lot (similar to Thomas Müller) and he's fast to boot. We'll miss Willian's pressing on the right but I think Havertz's/Ziyech's speed, directness and threat on the ball either through a cross or shot should compensate for that.

He seems to really like playing as right Inside Forward so IMO he'd be in direct competition with Ziyech if he came. I don't see him slotting in further back.

Regardless of COVID-19 etc, if we pass on him this season, we won't get a chance again.

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Rob B   

Interesting that a few people have referenced Havertz as playing wide forward (right) whereas I always envisaged him playing as an 8 or a 10 (Mount, Barkley, RLC etc)  e.g.

Pulisic   Werner  Ziyech

Kovacic Kante Havertz  

I'm not basing this on having watched tonnes of Havertz (although I've watched a bit) but more that I don't see Frank choosing between Ziyech or Havertz.   I think both walk into our first 11 it's just a case of fitting them in. 

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chelboy   
1 hour ago, Bob Singleton said:

If Havertz comes, he'll be wide right (Willian) rather than alongside Mount like Barkley/Loftus-Cheek/Kovacic

I love Kanté but he's started to look a little less 'dynamic' these days... maybe, at 29, it's time to cash in if suitable offers come in? I imagine Jorginho is the next most likely to leave of those four you mention.
 

I still think Kante has another 2-3 world class years in him. He’s the one midfielder that is different to the rest which is why I have never really entertained the idea of selling him. 

Wide right is more likely Ziyech. Ziyech is more of a risk taker so it would be better of to play him in the final third.  Both can play there but I see Havertz more in the middle. Lamps did speak about needing more goals from wide areas and midfield which is why I could see us playing 

 

    Werner      Tammy      Ziyech/Pulisic

        Mount                       Havertz

                       CDM

or:

                       Werner   Tammy

                              Ziyech

                    Mount          Havertz

                                CDM

 

I could be wrong though as many seem to see Werner playing the lone striker role but I just can’t see it myself. Not in the long term view anyway. 

 

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