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Sarin   

We will be playing 4231.

The last thing we need is a player dedicated to just screening the centre backs.

The problem is unlocking defences, we need to play faster, more creative, with more threat.

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GURJ SS   

Lol

But you're missing the point, its not the formation its the tactic, CM's can easily cover fullbacks in a 4231 but they don't always, because that is Jose's 'tactic' like I said. And Jose is the wiser one because it doesn't leave the centre open to attack. That's why he tells the wingers to do their defesive duty so that all gaps are closed and why we have probably the best defence stats in the world, even if it was a 433 the same wouldve tactics would be used, even 4-4-2, its not the formation, its the tactic.

The next thing also is that, you're now talking about pattern of play that jose has designed, one player does set the tempo, and that's matic, and the extra midfielder who runs in and around that striker is oscar, with another midfielder opposite matic doing his job, its the same thing Changing the formation will do nothing, what you want is expansive bayern type football, that's not us, and under jose will never be us, imo its not the style of play that gives us the edge. We don't get pushed into our own half, we have chosen to go back ourselves because we know how to control the game that way, we choose where we want the opponent to play the ball, press and takeover, when we get possession we make use of it. Depends what team we face really. Sometimes we press high, sometimes we don't, and that's what I love about jose, he's an adapter, he adapts to the situation, where as pep, wenger, carlo etc, tend to do the same thing all day. Its the tactic and what the manager chooses to do, not the formation, replacing an am with another CM will not give us more attacking play. You want border line overly expansive bayern type football which is not our thing. Formation does play part don't get me wrong, but the job you give the players and the type of players you field plays a much greater role than the formation of a team. And its wildly known the 4231 is superior to the rest, many benefits, more triangles, midfield flexibilty and allows you to change a side without many tactical changes.

I get the point, you are saying it depends on the tactic rather then the formation. But formation still gives you roles to play. 4231 is very flat, if the centre mids cover the full backs it would leave a gaping hole, which is why we defend very narrow with our wingers playing as full backs far too often then they should be.

As for Matic he is no Alonso or Pirlo that he can set the pace, he doesn't have the vision to be honest. He has the power to go forward on the ball but it the leaves the defence exposed. He cannot defend like Mikel so requires a more defensive player with him, with Mikel on the pitch we could even play 2 strikers, Matic won't give us that option.

But overly expansive styles of play use 4231, so if anything I am asking for more balance.

Our problem is if we attack we leave gaps in our defence, if we defend we look limp in attack. I agree that we need that little extra to break teams down however we need a balance. Against PSG we went forward and with no one sitting in front of the defence and it almost cost us, we were lucky that PSG wasn't a threat that night. Against Atletico we looked shakey because Mikel wasn't in midfield, because the fact is he protected the defence so well in the first game. If we had Hazard and Oscar that day I think we would have got a goal or maybe even two.

Mikel is a player who might not be dynamic, but he gives us so much more scope to play different players in front of him. It is a bit like saying Terry is our best defender but Luiz is able to get forward better, so he is better for us because he might not be able to defend as well but he is more dynamic. I believe we need a strong defence minded player in front of our defence who just wants to protect the defence. Then we can have any type of full backs as well. We all call for a attacking full back, but without true protection in front of the defence from a player who is experienced and calm on possession they can't risk going forward. Mikel I feel will be one of those players who we will miss if he left.

I watched the Liverpool and Palace game and my mate said one thing to me at the start of the game, and it cemented his opinion at the end. He wants Liverpool to sign Mikel, because he protects the defence like no other midfielder, Matic is a very good defensive midfielder, but Mikel is a lot better then we Chelsea fans give him credit for.

Edit: I hope to god one of our rivals don't buy him.

Edited by GURJ SS

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life   

I get the point, you are saying it depends on the tactic rather then the formation. But formation still gives you roles to play. 4231 is very flat, if the centre mids cover the full backs it would leave a gaping hole, which is why we defend very narrow with our wingers playing as full backs far too often then they should be.

As for Matic he is no Alonso or Pirlo that he can set the pace, he doesn't have the vision to be honest. He has the power to go forward on the ball but it the leaves the defence exposed. He cannot defend like Mikel so requires a more defensive player with him, with Mikel on the pitch we could even play 2 strikers, Matic won't give us that option.

But overly expansive styles of play use 4231, so if anything I am asking for more balance.

Our problem is if we attack we leave gaps in our defence, if we defend we look limp in attack. I agree that we need that little extra to break teams down however we need a balance. Against PSG we went forward and with no one sitting in front of the defence and it almost cost us, we were lucky that PSG wasn't a threat that night. Against Atletico we looked shakey because Mikel wasn't in midfield, because the fact is he protected the defence so well in the first game. If we had Hazard and Oscar that day I think we would have got a goal or maybe even two.

Mikel is a player who might not be dynamic, but he gives us so much more scope to play different players in front of him. It is a bit like saying Terry is our best defender but Luiz is able to get forward better, so he is better for us because he might not be able to defend as well but he is more dynamic. I believe we need a strong defence minded player in front of our defence who just wants to protect the defence. Then we can have any type of full backs as well. We all call for a attacking full back, but without true protection in front of the defence from a player who is experienced and calm on possession they can't risk going forward. Mikel I feel will be one of those players who we will miss if he left.

I watched the Liverpool and Palace game and my mate said one thing to me at the start of the game, and it cemented his opinion at the end. He wants Liverpool to sign Mikel, because he protects the defence like no other midfielder, Matic is a very good defensive midfielder, but Mikel is a lot better then we Chelsea fans give him credit for.

Edit: I hope to god one of our rivals don't buy him.

Now you are talking more tactics and not formation which looks like an improvement ;), I have already stressed the formation is also important, and like I said, the 4231 atm is superior to the others, well according to most tacticians in the world, I can't think of many teams in the CL that don't use it, they all do. Its not flat, don't let the fact that jose made us more defensive around dec/jan fool you, we will revert back when we have competent forwards who can allow us to be a bit more balanced when expanded, till then the tactic we use now, is the best balance we have. You want balance but jose has set the balance with what he has to work with, which is a team with almost no firepower, a change in formation won't fix that. Taking off goal scoring am's and replacing them with CM's won't fix that. Another point, every team is open when they attack because the need to open up and use the width of the pitch, that's why teams counter, that has nothing to do with anything, jose has set it up better than any of us couldve thought of. And I am pretty sure matic sets the tempo very well and defends well, just look at our defensive stats since he came in..., , relax, everything will be fine, you are finding problems where there aren't. When we can increase our fire power with front men who do their job,our attack will look like a new animal, that is an important focal point for our attack that will change our game. The best tacticians in the game love the 4231, even the not so great, its not the formation.

We are 1-2 top strikers and a LB away from dominating, maybe just maybe a CM too, not as important as the front man though, we need that more.

Edited by life

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GURJ SS   

Now you are talking more tactics and not formation which looks like an improvement ;), I have already stressed the formation is also important, and like I said, the 4231 atm is superior to the others, well according to most tacticians in the world, I can't think of many teams in the CL that don't use it, they all do. Its not flat, don't let the fact that jose made us more defensive around dec/jan fool you, we will revert back when we have competent forwards who can allow us to be a bit more balanced when expanded, till then the tactic we use now, is the best balance we have. You want balance but jose has set the balance with what he has to work with, which is a team with almost no firepower, a change in formation won't fix that. Taking off goal scoring am's and replacing them with CM's won't fix that. Another point, every team is open when they attack because the need to open up and use the width of the pitch, that's why teams counter, that has nothing to do with anything, jose has set it up better than any of us couldve thought of. And I am pretty sure matic sets the tempo very well and defends well, just look at our defensive stats since he came in..., , relax, everything will be fine, you are finding problems where there aren't. When we can increase our fire power with front men who do their job,our attack will look like a new animal, that is an important focal point for our attack that will change our game. The best tacticians in the game love the 4231, even the not so great, its not the formation.

We are 1-2 top strikers and a LB away from dominating, maybe just maybe a CM too, not as important as the front man though, we need that more.

We have played dominating football both defensively and attacking when using the 433, just look back to Jose's first time here. The reason not only Lampard but also Tiago/Essien could get forward was because Makelele was behind them. Now we have 2 centre mids who get nowhere near the oppositions goal. A better way to explain is like this, Makelele never needed to chase his opponent towards his own goals, he was in the way to begin with, much like Mikel does now. Matic has to chase and so does his partner in midfield. It sometimes takes both because of positional sense, we do without a doubt get flat, which is why our teams defends as a 4411. Mikel is always in the right place at the right time, something Matic just does not have, he is a great player but he needs a partner. Mikel doesn't need a partner, because he won't get caught where he is having to chase a player back towards his own goals.

Jose I believe did not change his system because of the strikers, making clear chances was our problem. A team when they are versatile adjust to their striker on the pitch. They know how they like the ball and where, sorry bit regardless of their quality or lack of, 3 strikers cannot he wrong. Plenty of teams in the premier league play the same striker against every team they meet, and also manage to get them service, even Ricky Lambert or Loic Remy get service. We lacked service to the striker, because we didn't have enough freedom in attack. We have been extremely rigid. I am a fan of Jose, but I believe he has placed the blame on the strikers far too much. Against Norwich for example, we spent most of the match with 2 centre mids about 10 yards between each other when we only needed one player to sit while the other plays with more freedom. Jose if anything didn't trust one player to sit until he needed to go gung ho.

If you look at my team for next season a few post back you will see I agree that we don't need major changes. If anything I would change from it is that if Lukaku does leave I would have Bony and Remy to be the 2 other strikers with Costa.

I agree we adapted when we needed to, but only defensively. When we needed to adapt offensively Jose was very reluctant to risk just one player to sit. I think he knows that he cannot leave Matic exposed, again I think Matic is a great player but he just isn't assured as Mikel is in defending and covering the defence.

We have had a great defensive record no doubt, but my only concern is this: That if Mikel has played the season that we could have had either another one of our more attacking players on the pitch or even another striker. Because Mikel will protect us far more, which means more freedom to go forward.

The best teams in Europe were fixated on 442 flat and diamond, and also 532 as well as 352. Jose had plans with a very powerful and dynamic 433, but if I remember it required something. Something to protect in order for his attacking players to destroy teams in front of them. That was someone to sit in front of the defence and keep it simple, I just feel now that we are sacrificing attack because of this dynamic craze. Juve keep Pirlo back, even with a team that has Pogba and Vidal in they will still play a holding player. Because without the holding player they would not be able to do what they do best. Our attacking players have had to sacrifice their game because we don't have a protector for our defence, one that is able to do the job without needed someone 10 yards alongside him. Truth is our attacking players are having to do more defending then attacking. It won't change till we start to keep a holding player. If Jose sees Matic rather then Mikel as that player then so be it, but he needs to be told to sit in front and leave the ball playing to someone better. If we had Matic sitting in front of the defence and Oscar controlling the game we would have a much better chance at breaking a team down without risking a counter, especially with Willian being the other player in midfield with Oscar and Matic.

If we started next season with Matic, Oscar, Willian, Hazard, Reus and Costa, would you feel that we would not be balanced enough. Because as long as Matic sits in the middle in front of the defence I would be confident that Oscar and Willian would do their bit to help out, freeing up Hazard and for example Reus more for attacking and helping the striker.

The thing about 433 is not the formation, it is actually the tactic itself. It forces teams to try and go wide instead of the middle and they end up blocked in a corner, on top of that they are worried that our wingers would be more free to do a number on them. In our current set up our attacking players are simply way too deep, if we play a holding player we can free up much more for attack and be much more versatile.

Edited by GURJ SS

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Promises, promises!

What I mean, is that as far as I'm concerned on that topic, there's no need for further discussion. Just to be clear!

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Jose might play a 4-3-3 next year, or a flexible 4-2-3-1 - they are interchangable, you can play both without actually changing personnel on the pitch. I think, ideally, that's how Jose would prefer it. And both systems work.

Remember, Jose has said this year he stopped the attacking progression of the team in order to secure us in the top 4. He didn't have the personnel to complete our evolution attacking wise and the only way to secure top 3, compete for titles and do well in the CL with our squad and inexprience was to play the way we did, based on solid defence.

Next year will be different.

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Stim   

Jose might play a 4-3-3 next year, or a flexible 4-2-3-1 - they are interchangable, you can play both without actually changing personnel on the pitch. I think, ideally, that's how Jose would prefer it. And both systems work.

I bet he'll play whatever works best against that weeks opposition. Be it 4-3-3, 4-4-2. 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1

Edited by Stim

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Holymoly   

Our loanees give us a big pool of talent to fill up the "back-up" roles in the squad. Some of them aren't and never will be Chelsea material, but will fetch decent money in sales.

Ask yourself. How many of the loanees, that we might want to cash in on, have produced enough this season to advertise themselves to potential suitors? Let's be honest, as usual, we'll probably just let them go on a free.

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Ask yourself. How many of the loanees, that we might want to cash in on, have produced enough this season to advertise themselves to potential suitors? Let's be honest, as usual, we'll probably just let them go on a free.

That doesn't even make sense. Every player has his price, and some will fetch a lot less than others, but we've only really been in the loaning business properly for a few seasons, so how many players have we even seen come out on the other side yet??

This is probably the first summer, where more than 2-3 players will be moved on from their loans. (Kakuta, Marin, Romeu, Moses, Delac, Lalkovic, Davila and possibly Bertrand and/or van Aanholt among the candidates)

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That doesn't even make sense. Every player has his price, and some will fetch a lot less than others, but we've only really been in the loaning business properly for a few seasons, so how many players have we even seen come out on the other side yet??

It is a business?

A proper business?

Most of these players are costing us £15 to 20K a week 12 months a year, and being loaned to lower league clubs with tight budgets (proper businesses).

If they are good (Bamford) they'll get taken back in 6 months and pushed up to a higher league.

If they are OK they'll become available 2 years later as 23 year olds on £5-10k a week.

And yet some here reckon there is a business to be had in loaning inexperienced 19 year olds to clubs for 3, 4 or 9 months a year to clubs where the club captain is on less than they are.

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