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kratos   

You are right Sam, since the Sunderland LC match Jose decided it was time to get us back to basics, especially with Arsenal away game coming up.

Games like 4-3 away to Sunderland and 2-3 to Stoke are not us. The scousers and spuds might want that but it won't bring them success.

I was hopeful for a trophy this season but I also accepted that we are still progressing and I like to think that we have so far.

Hopefully this summer we can put on the finishing touches but to be honest we have said that many times before.

Anyway this is my wishlist.

Striker Diego Costa

Midfielder Ross Barkley

LB not too sure but maybe Felipe Luis

Not forgetting the loans returning like Moses, Lukaku, Bertrand and possibly Courtois too.

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jones   

^All of them playing games and being paid out of the first team budget (which is there for players playing for Chelsea) not out of some slush fund to be thrown away on players who never contribute the CFC fist team.

Del Horno was a lot cheaper than Kakuta . Boulah was a lot cheaper than Slobodan Rajkovic. Glen Johnson was a bargain who won 2 PL titles with us and cost less than some who have started no more than 2 or 3 games for us. . SWP cost Chelsea in transfers and wages about twice that of Piazon. But then SWP made 60 starts for the team that brings in revenue. Piazon has made 2 in the LC.

Once you start looking at costs per appearance you'll soon learn that Sheva and Torres were absolute bargains compared to the Academy program.

You are twisting everything here, and I dont have time to respond as thorroughly as I would like, but the point in my previous post was this:

It is not easy to spot 7mp successes like Cahill and Ivanovic, like you seem to think. For every time we "put the ball into the far corner" there are tons of shots going wide (Bouhlarouz, SWP) and a few shots that goes out to throw-in (Torres/Shevchenko). You basically mocked our youth set up because you only want us to buy cheap world class players. And I must say it feels strange to have to explain how utopic this is.

Another point I have made previously is that I think the business model we have now comapred to that of 3-5 years ago with Arnesen (including players like Rajkovic and Kakuta) is a much better one. It is very long-term, and whether it is better in a financial way remains to be seen.

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Stim   

You basically mocked our youth set up because you only want us to buy cheap world class players. And I must say it feels strange to have to explain how utopic this is.

I think its more buy cheap players that actually contribute to the first team.

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jones   

I think its more buy cheap players that actually contribute to the first team.

Which is not utopic at all ...

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Stim   

It's very different to 'cheap world class players'

We can actually remember del Horno, Boulahrouz, Glen Johnson, Bosingwa and SWP's names. It's probably difficult for most fans to name half of the youth players we let go over the years (Unless you follow the loanees closely).

I doubt the money from loaned players sold makes a noticeable mark on the clubs income.

Edited by Stim

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You are right Sam, since the Sunderland LC match Jose decided it was time to get us back to basics, especially with Arsenal away game coming up.

Games like 4-3 away to Sunderland and 2-3 to Stoke are not us. The scousers and spuds might want that but it won't bring them success.

I was hopeful for a trophy this season but I also accepted that we are still progressing and I like to think that we have so far.

Hopefully this summer we can put on the finishing touches but to be honest we have said that many times before.

Anyway this is my wishlist.

Striker Diego Costa

Midfielder Ross Barkley

LB not too sure but maybe Felipe Luis

Not forgetting the loans returning like Moses, Lukaku, Bertrand and possibly Courtois too.

Felipe Luis is a very good player. Seeing as Costa seems to be on his way out though I do not think Atletico will sell him cheap. He will turn 29 at the start of next season and I think Moreno is a target the club would be more interested in purely because he is 21 and big money for a 29 year old is something the club seem to have stopped altogether now.

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1. Nobody actually can find a definition of what a loan fee is,l so be careful making assumptions about it. It is not clear even when a loan fee is claimed, that the fee is additional to the player wages.

Lukaku and Courtois aside, I doubt that we cover our wage costs on any of our players. Certainly not Marin or Moses or Romeu - who are only on loan because they were flops.

Meanwhile Lukaku and Courtois have run down 3 years each of their contracts with barely an appearance for Chelsea between them. One appears in the top ten most expensive teenagers in football, the other in the top 10 keepers. Selling them on for a profit will not be as easy as you think.

2. De Bruyne is said to have gone for£18m to Wolfsburg. The same club that sold Mandzukic for EUR13m 18 months earlier. believe that and you'll believe any numbers.

3. .transfermarkt.de do do a heroic job in trying to value players. It is heroic bull all the same. Bertrand Traore worth EUR 0.5m, Romeu worth EUR 7m. ????

It is nonsense. Moses is worth double what we paid for him - after the massive pay rise he'd have got, and after his form has collapsed?

4. FFP has been counting finances from 2010. The exemption for Academy spending is unclear - but certainly does no include wages for players 18+, (which is the major expense) or transfer fees for players 18+. Whether it excludes agents fees, signing on fees or transfer fees for U18s is debatable.

In other word the loading up on assets theory is bollocks.

Del Horno was sold for EUR 8m and stayed just one year. So he cost £1m in fees and £2 or 3m in wages.

kakuta has been costing us around £1m a year for some time now.

SWP vs Piazon - you do the maths yourself (and research how much Piazon cost - it is quite an eye-opener).

This is just cost to the club, never mind the contribution to the first team effort.

1. A loan fee shouldn't need any additional explanation. It's function is in the name. Wages would be paid directly to the player (as on-loan club is also liable for insurance, tax etc., as with any employment contract). Any money changing hands between the club would need a different term, safe to assume it is "loan fee".

Whether it is paid and what the specific terms are would naturally differ from deal to deal. Why make it more complicated than it is.

Romeu, Marin and Moses might've been "flops". Or just not quite good enough for Chelsea. Nevertheless, why you think they would've been hard to loan out, is beyond me. They're top flight players coming off a bad season (/injury). There's going to be interest. Loans made sense for all parties. Players regain market value with a good season, which helps Chelsea, too. Other club gets to try out the player without any commitment beyond the season, low investment, low risk.

Lukaku and Courtois shouldn't be sold in any case. But having them out on loan for 2/3 years put them off our own wage bill. While letting them become the players they are.

2. Volkswagen has been sponsoring some high profile purchases this past year. They also got Luiz Gustavo in the summer.

3. They won't be particularly up-to-date, admittedly, but on average they're probably a reasonable estimate of a players value. Traoré is a complete unknown factor to world football. Romeu is worth 5m quid, easily. And Moses, according to this site, was 11,5m Euros when we bought him. Is now down to just 11.

4. 2011/12. And it's actually pretty clear, if you bother reading the rules. Or the numerous reports, blogs, tweets, or even forum posts on the matter.

If you understand how accounting works, the processes of player purchases and loans make more sense.

Torres costs Chelsea some £18,5m per season. By far or most expensive player on the books. And you think he's an "absolute bargain", compared to the academy... (Hazard is still £16,6m, but at least he might be worth it. Compare 3rd: Willan £10,8m)

So excuse me, when I tend to think a half-million here or there in amortisation for a player on loan isn't going to hurt, as long as we have numpties like Torres in the squad.

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It is not easy to spot 7mp successes like Cahill and Ivanovic, like you seem to think.

Another point I have made previously is that I think the business model we have now comapred to that of 3-5 years ago with Arnesen (including players like Rajkovic and Kakuta) is a much better one. It is very long-term, and whether it is better in a financial way remains to be seen.

Actually £7m successes like Cahill at 23 are a lot easier to spot than £3m 17 yo failures - because they have a hundred or so first team appearances behind them. You are evaluating performance, not potential. the odds become 50/50 instead of 5/95, and then the ability to outbid everyone else become an advantage not a handicap.

The successes recently - Oscar, Hazard, Mata, Lukaku, Courtois, Cahill, all had 50 to 100 first team appearances behind them when we bought them. To claim Lukaku and Courtois as successes for our program is pretty misleading.

You basically mocked our youth set up because you only want us to buy cheap world class players. And I must say it feels strange to have to explain how utopic this is.

I mocked our youth set up because it is an expensive way of taking 16 year old diamonds and making 22 year old League 1 players out of them.

Meanwhile, anyone who appears for the first team is producing real value for the club. If Torres's has made around 160 appearances for us and cost £50m + £35m in wages (rough estimates), then it works out as about £500K a match.

Sheva was similar.

The Academy - indeed all the players who arrived without 30+ first team appearance behind them (ie the ones that weren't first team ready) have costs us 5 or 10 times as much as Torres or Sheva a match.

Do go away and try out the maths, it is a useful and enlightening exercise.

Which is not utopic at all ...

I don't think you have fully worked out your own thoughts on this, let alone understood mine (or Stim's).

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1. A loan fee shouldn't need any additional explanation. It's function is in the name. Wages would be paid directly to the player (as on-loan club is also liable for insurance, tax etc., as with any employment contract). Any money changing hands between the club would need a different term, safe to assume it is "loan fee".

Whether it is paid and what the specific terms are would naturally differ from deal to deal. Why make it more complicated than it is.

No. if I define a loan fee as the gross cost of the player to the borrowing club I have just as good a definition as you. Which is right is guess work.

Romeu, Marin and Moses might've been "flops". Or just not quite good enough for Chelsea. Nevertheless, why you think they would've been hard to loan out, is beyond me. They're top flight players coming off a bad season (/injury). There's going to be interest. Loans made sense for all parties. Players regain market value with a good season, which helps Chelsea, too. Other club gets to try out the player without any commitment beyond the season, low investment, low risk.

The problem here is the assumption that mid-table Spanish clubs pay similar wages for first team players as we pay for bench players. They don't. they only play their star players the £30 to £50k a week these players are on.

Lukaku and Courtois shouldn't be sold in any case. But having them out on loan for 2/3 years put them off our own wage bill. While letting them become the players they are.

And ran down their contacts by 3 years so that Courtois could well be off on a Bosman before he ever plays for us.

2. Volkswagen has been sponsoring some high profile purchases this past year. They also got Luiz Gustavo in the summer.

Good point. But do you (does anyone) really believe that De Bruyne was bought for £18m by any club?

3. They won't be particularly up-to-date, admittedly, but on average they're probably a reasonable estimate of a players value. Traoré is a complete unknown factor to world football. Romeu is worth 5m quid, easily. And Moses, according to this site, was 11,5m Euros when we bought him. Is now down to just 11.

Romeu is worth tuppence - you can't sell him to Spain on Chelsea wages.

4. 2011/12. And it's actually pretty clear, if you bother reading the rules. Or the numerous reports, blogs, tweets, or even forum posts on the matter.

If you understand how accounting works, the processes of player purchases and loans make more sense.

Torres costs Chelsea some £18,5m per season. By far or most expensive player on the books. And you think he's an "absolute bargain", compared to the academy... (Hazard is still £16,6m, but at least he might be worth it. Compare 3rd: Willan £10,8m)

So excuse me, when I tend to think a half-million here or there in amortisation for a player on loan isn't going to hurt, as long as we have numpties like Torres in the squad.

Of course I have read the rules, and I have plenty of letters after my name that say I can read accounting.

City are being punished on the basis of their last 3 years numbers. Unless they have already reported 13/14, that means they start with 10/11.

There are a hell of a lot of half million costs going on for every appearance of a youth system player in teh first team. Just the one for Torres.

I think you need to reconsider what counts as production in this business.

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GURJ SS   

Felipe Luis is a very good player. Seeing as Costa seems to be on his way out though I do not think Atletico will sell him cheap. He will turn 29 at the start of next season and I think Moreno is a target the club would be more interested in purely because he is 21 and big money for a 29 year old is something the club seem to have stopped altogether now.

Would rather go for either Contratro or Marcelo. Better players, more experience, and would still give us 5 years of service. They are also extremely versatile in both defence and attack, especially Contratro.

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