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Sleeping Dave

Diving At Our Club - What Can We Do?

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Andyn   

Ban our own players? So what if Hazard dives in the CL semi final? ;)

I don't think this is the way forward. Just tell them you expect them not to dive like you expect them to attend the training every day. Moreover, I don't think that the last two games can be extrapolated further on. It's just a very unfortunate coincidence that two of our players dived so blatantly in two consecutive games. It does not change the fact that it is highly unlikely that it will happen again any time soon. I hope.

So its ok to dive if your hazard in cl semi final but not if your ramires in fa cup at derby?

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Sorry but the quote option doesn't work nor doe cut and paste (this is the worse forum for user friendliness inho)

The player is a representative of the club and thus the club is ultimately responsible for his conduct. Therefore by punishing the club for failing to ensure their employees act in accordance with the rules will force the club to act. All the time you punish the player the club (who ultimately benefit from the cheat remember) go unpunished.

They could easily secretly reward the player especially if he got a penalty in a crucial match. No overtly with a "Here's 20k for diving for a penalty" but covertly "Here's 20k as a reward for your loyalty" Then it's up to the player to interpret why he was so 'loyal' deduct a point and a 20k bonus would be pointless

The only way to stop cheating is to punish those who gain from cheating - the clubs.

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The boat has been well and truly missed in football, regarding this topic.

Its a really messy subject, similar to technology in football. Where does the line start and end with diving ? Is a player waiting for contact and going down classed as diving ? If so, this incident happens about 10-20 times a game ,depending on who the referee is.

Quite often they dont need to go down, but win fouls in a professional manner, or is it cheating?

It's been allowed to go too far the other way imo. Pundits/fans want fouls for the pettiest of challenges and this is often due to some level of diving.

Howard Webb had a lot of stick for his performances recently, for me he has tried to get the game back to where it was by letting things go for both teams. I would much rather see this from a referee, that some idiot ref blowing for everything.

Trouble is refs by nature are not consistent. Whilst I praise Webb, I appreciate it is only a matter of time before he contradicts himself in the next couple of weeks.

It seems there is an accepted difference between diving and winning a foul in football, this don't sit comfortably with me and we either have them both or none. Ideally, it would be neither are accepted, but this will never be eradicated from the game, so it's a case of accepting both or being a massive hypocrite imo.

Incompletely disagree the boat has sailed. So far no one has done diddly squat to rectify it. THAT'S the problem.

As long as no one attempts to stop it there's no reason for it to stop. Ever.

As for your other point, looking for a foul, then being fouled is different from running and then all of a sudden falling down in a heap screaming like someone shot you. Not at all the same thing.

What is 'looking for a foul'? Sometimes you hear some idiot commentating on a game saying 'it's not a penalty because he looked for it'. What usually have happened there is that the player attempted to dribble the defender and he fouled the attacking player. That's what happened to Ramires against WBA.

Being aggressive with the ball in the box when it's in your possession is not cheating. It's called playing football.

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Not sure what you're indicating here. That Mourinho says we don't want divers and the players interpret that as a green light to cheat all they want?

Not indicating anything, more musing aimlessly.

Could we be testing the waters? We absolutely haven't been prolific divers in recent months (despite what many think) but there's now been two pretty clear-cut incidents in the 7 days following the Liverpool game. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not. Personally I doubt many players do anything a manager has told them not to do- they'd not get many chances.

I think you're hugely overestimating the press and public at large. Any statement on how our players dive and we're done for the season as far as refs go. It'd be suicide. There's a reason most managers back their players no matter what.

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Sorry but the quote option doesn't work nor doe cut and paste (this is the worse forum for user friendliness inho)

The player is a representative of the club and thus the club is ultimately responsible for his conduct. Therefore by punishing the club for failing to ensure their employees act in accordance with the rules will force the club to act. All the time you punish the player the club (who ultimately benefit from the cheat remember) go unpunished.

They could easily secretly reward the player especially if he got a penalty in a crucial match. No overtly with a "Here's 20k for diving for a penalty" but covertly "Here's 20k as a reward for your loyalty" Then it's up to the player to interpret why he was so 'loyal' deduct a point and a 20k bonus would be pointless

The only way to stop cheating is to punish those who gain from cheating - the clubs.

Unless the club is actively promoting cheating I don't see your point at all.

Yes, it is true the clubs benefit from cheaters. That's why it would be such a strong signal to ban a player cheating. He'd lose his game bonus, he'd be hung out to dry and the club has such made a very strong stand.

We don't accept cheating. I'm basically jumping your step cause it would not lead anywhere. Unless the player feels the pain he won't stop cheating.

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Try dismissing an employee who is consistently late. If the employer lets it go more than a month or so the employee can claim unfair dismissal because lateness was accepted and became deemed 'normal'.

The fact that cheating has gone on means clubs are complicit in cheating and therefore in law become liable for it.

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Not indicating anything, more musing aimlessly.

Could we be testing the waters? We absolutely haven't been prolific divers in recent months (despite what many think) but there's now been two pretty clear-cut incidents in the 7 days following the Liverpool game. Maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not. Personally I doubt many players do anything a manager has told them not to do- they'd not get many chances.

I think you're hugely overestimating the press and public at large. Any statement on how our players dive and we're done for the season as far as refs go. It'd be suicide. There's a reason most managers back their players no matter what.

Regarding your first point - unlikely.

Regarding your second - why? Oscar was largely slated by everyone and even a clear penalty on Ramires was widely accepted as a dive. If we took an active stance on it we'd effectively reached impunity. We have taken a stance and would, as far as I know, been the only club who's ever done anything similar.

If the media would like to slate us for that they'd have very little ammunition. Everyone can see when a player dives. Just because we accept it doesn't mean they'd think we'd be bigger cheats than anyone else. JM has already said the yellows were correct. What difference would it make to the media if we also banned him? None.

Both are admissions of guilt.

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DLU   

If hazard dives then he's banned. Simple. Consistency is key here. If the club would adopt this (unlikely yes) then we'd be crucified if we didn't use it consistently.

As for your last comment, sounds more like hope than fact mate.

So its ok to dive if your hazard in cl semi final but not if your ramires in fa cup at derby?

No it's not okay to dive if you're Hazard. But you need to consider two points before you criticise them so hard.

1. Ramires, I am sure, did NOT make a conscious decision to dive. It happened subconsciously within a few nanoseconds, and there is not much he could do about this decision. Being the rolemodel professional that he is, I am sure that if Ramires had enough time to make a conscious decision he would have never dived. He has probably already apologised to everyone involved, which is, in my opinion, together with the yellow card, an appropriate conclusion for this incident.

2. Ramires, Oscar or, hypothetically, Hazard don't dive just for the sake of it. At the end of the day, they do it for the team because they want Chelsea to win the game. That's also why they foul other players or don't cancel a run towards the opponent's goal if an offside position was not spotted.

Therefore my conclusion is that if you had such a banning system, you would 1. punish players for instinctive behaviour that they cannot simply abandon no matter how you punish them and 2. you would inevitably - esp if you ban Hazard - do it at the expense of the success of the club as a whole.

Also, you would need to punish them for fouls, handballs, offside - in short for every breach of the rules. In the end we would end up without any players mate, and I am sure you wouldn't want that?

If we consider that 5 yellows mean you are banned for one match, then one yellow is the equivalent of being banned for one fifth of a match - which is 18 minutes. In my opinion that's enough.

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Zoowraa   

Incompletely disagree the boat has sailed. So far no one has done diddly squat to rectify it. THAT'S the problem.

As long as no one attempts to stop it there's no reason for it to stop. Ever.

As for your other point, looking for a foul, then being fouled is different from running and then all of a sudden falling down in a heap screaming like someone shot you. Not at all the same thing.

What is 'looking for a foul'? Sometimes you hear some idiot commentating on a game saying 'it's not a penalty because he looked for it'. What usually have happened there is that the player attempted to dribble the defender and he fouled the attacking player. That's what happened to Ramires against WBA.

Being aggressive with the ball in the box when it's in your possession is not cheating. It's called playing football.

Quite often when a player is looking for a foul, he wins it, quite often it is not a foul. This is my point. That is still cheating/diving. We all know the type of scenarios I am talking about here.

These scenarios happen numerous times a match. Like I have said before, refs often manage matches rather than ref them. They will blow up for fouls in the middle of the pitch that they would not blow for in the box. That is managing the game and not refereeing the game.

It's become accepted for players to win fouls in football, comments such as their was contact so he has every right to go down.

Reason I say the boat has sailed, this needed to be clamped down on during mid 90s and it wasn't . It's fair worse now and got that way over 20 years, your right that no-one has tackled it. I would love to know the average fouls in a PL match from a recent season compared to a mid 90s season. I suspect far more fouls these days then 20 years back, yet very few rules introduced in the game that could lead to this and the game less physical now. So if my suspicions are right, why more fouls on average per game ? Yes it's down to a mixture of diving and players winning fouls, same thing in my book. It's something I have learned to accept, so whilst it annoys me, I accept it is now part of the game and nothing can be done to change that imo.

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Try dismissing an employee who is consistently late. If the employer lets it go more than a month or so the employee can claim unfair dismissal because lateness was accepted and became deemed 'normal'.

The fact that cheating has gone on means clubs are complicit in cheating and therefore in law become liable for it.

Now you're quoting extreme cases. Nonetheless, as a professional in the City of London you can absolutely be fired for repeated 'offences' such as being continuously late or off sick more than what's deemed normal.

I've seen it happen myself. Usually you'll get a warning (verbal). If you repeat the 'offence' the warning is written and will stick with you for a year. If you commit the same (or similar offence) within the 12 month period you can very much lose your job.

I don't see how the club would be liable for a player cheating. It's the referees that are there to make sure it doesn't occur and if it does they should punish the player. I'm claiming that symbolic punishment isn't nearly severe enough to have any sort of impact on the continuous cheating we see at Chelsea and basically every other club in world football.

So what to do? Close our eyes and say we can't do anything about it?

I understand and accept that my suggestion is very unorthodox as it would be the very party who'd benefit from the cheating that would take a stance and say this is unacceptable behaviour.

That's the very reason I think it would be so effective.

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