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Taking The Pee Out Of Liverpool (For Khobar)

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Leo91   

Taking the knee has always meant taking a stand against racism. It just so happens the national anthem is an opportunist time to do it. 

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chara   

Please....look a lot closer at everything that went on and is going on......the "media" having a field day and encouraging turmoil.

The non media narrative is something like.."Terrible incident shouldn't have happened and we are appalled BUT...".....bluntly?..a not very successful criminal commits a silly crime too stoned or dumb to leave the scene gets arrested things get very bad very quickly and inexcusable  and an appalling outcome ensues..The "bad" cop is arrested and charged ..then protests breakout...the "Gentle Giant" with a prison record for armed robbery and such becomes Ghandi MLK and Mother Teresa all in one.

The whole thing is a terrible indictment of many social ills but kneeling is a hollow gesture and rioting harms only our own neighbours and leads to nothing..empty gestures are not what is needed ..cool heads and common sense..as ever in short supply ..must prevail.

Protest if you feel the need...free speech is priceless...riot?....yep..that works.....

 

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chara   
4 minutes ago, Leo91 said:

Taking the knee has always meant taking a stand against racism. It just so happens the national anthem is an opportunist time to do it. 

Very much respect the intent but always seems ironic to me that incredibly well paid athletes (and celebs) think they are making any difference...some do but put your money etc.....

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paulw66   
2 hours ago, chiswickblue said:

Exactly, who now interprets this as a protest against the US national anthem? It's showing solidarity with the protesters in the US and the memory of George Ford. Everyone is doing this today so I'm not surprised that football clubs are getting involved, the players must want to. Nothing wrong with Liverpool doing this and nothing wrong with our team doing this.

People / clubs are free to do what they like..........but it's virtue signalling at its very finest. Achieves absolutely eff all, other than to say, look at us, aren't we nice people, we're doing the right thing.  Just like all the celebs (and non celebs) who have uploaded a black square as a profile picture on social media...........great well done.

Moreover, what has a PL football team got to do with police brutality in the US? And has anyone heard of Tony Timpa?

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29 minutes ago, Leo91 said:

Taking the knee has always meant taking a stand against racism. It just so happens the national anthem is an opportunist time to do it. 

Don't think so.  In the 19th centrury 2 knees meant something.  Not 1 knee.
You could try googling "take a knee"

Strictly "take a knee" is an American Football term for a man with the ball as it stops play (rather than neeedlessly falling over).

 

1 minute ago, paulw66 said:

People / clubs are free to do what they like..........but it's virtue signalling at its very finest.

Ignorant virtue signalling at that. (Reminds me of the ignorant "Je suis Charlie" backing of the racist magazine; or the Greta mania which was basically ignore the science but follow the school kid; or worst of all the Khashoggi nonsense that kept Yemen out of the news for a year).  Surprised they aren't all wearing masks.

Poor and black Americans know very well why they are so far behind the rich.  The politics of virtue signalling as opposed to actually doing anything is the reason.
The US played at Wembley 2 years ago.  Pretty sure they would have played both national anthems.
If anyone "took a knee"  we would have heard about it.  
 

ENG: 1-Jordan Pickford (21-Alex McCarthy, 46); 2-Trent Alexander-Arnold, 5-Michael Keane, 6-Lewis Dunk, 3-Ben Chilwell (22-Eric Dier, 58); 4-Fabian Delph (capt.), 8-Harry Winks (23-Ruben Loftus-Cheek, 70); 7-Jadon Sancho, 11-Dele Alli (16-Jordan Henderson, 58), 14-Jesse Lingard (10-Wayne Rooney, 58); 9-Callum Wilson (19-Marcus Rashford, 79)
Substitutes:  13-Jack Butland, 12-Harry Kane, 15-Kyle Walker, 17-Raheem Sterling, 18-Ross Barkley, 20-John Stones, Head coach: Gareth Southgate

Trent Alexander-Arnold leading the Liverpool tweeting.  

BTW I haven't checked but was Pulisic in our picture?  Because he started that game too.  or RLC?

ooh look  :)
https://youtu.be/f25kO1buXx4?t=22

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6 hours ago, paulw66 said:

and now we have done it.......... dear oh dear 

Lol.

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17 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

So the knee comes from Kaepernick  - unless you take the absurd idea that the knee represents Nicholas Chauvin.
And taking the knee means not standing up to applaud the US national anthem.
But it is a passive action - not standing, rather than actively dissing the anthem.
(Plenty claim it is an insult to the anthem, but that is unfair, if a common nationalist view in US).

So in the UK either the knee means absolutely nothing, or it means insulting the US anthem.
 

In practice it means Ffing idiot Chelsea players copying Ffing idiot Liverpool players without a braincell between the 40 odd.

I'd be really delighted if the players explicitly supported BLM.  Frankly I'd be ecstatic if one or two were quoted that this is all happening because of inequality, gun laws that make armed police paranoic, race predjudice and above all because Obama did nothing to deal with the problem over 8 years and Trump nothing in 3.  
But they need to choose their words carefully because they all know that being black is fine if you are rich and live in a gated community.

It's showing solidarity with the protesters in the US and the memory of George Ford. 

two very kind of knees.
Colin Kaepernick Defends Protesters After Police Killing of ...

Idiot sheep.  Shame on anyone that dumb.  All of them.

VOUS ÊTES CHARLIES

I feel you're taking a fairly odd, inflexible stance on what 'meaning', erm, means here. Symbolic gestures, as well as plain words, very often take on different or more specific nuances over even short periods of time, and very often were fluid to start with. I'd not say it was ever passive given the exact point was to performatively and visibly not participate in the anthem (there's a much easier passive way, most footballers do it!). There was huge fallout initially for Kaepernick over taking the knee, much of it clearly or more insidiously related to his race, and very quickly others were taking the knee in a show of solidarity to him over how he and indeed black people generally are treated when they are perceived to step out of line. I can't say I religiously track American culture, but I've never been aware of this very specific meaning you describe. For as long as taking the knee has been in my consciousness, I have understood it to be a show of solidarity for oppressed black people, of hostility to that oppression, and a general (imo deserved!) "**** you" to white America. Much how you don't have to be a Black Panther or to want a race war or segregation to raise a fist.

I can't see any logic at all to a suggestion this meaning can't expand and survive a trip over the Atlantic ...

I do agree though that I would love to see more explicit, even more aggressive political support for BLM or, for example, the numerous bail funds.

For what it is worth, my understanding is that black players at both our club and Liverpool asked to do this, and thank christ the white players and management agreed. Imagine them doing the opposite.

15 hours ago, paulw66 said:

People / clubs are free to do what they like..........but it's virtue signalling at its very finest.

Not a fan of this attitude, and I'm generally very big on cynicism. It might look pathetic or meaningless to you, but to people on the receiving end of racism (I feel confident that you're white, because like me you're a ST holder and let's face it, most of us are! Apologies if not) one of the hardest things about it can be that it just seems to be tolerated, ignored, not even noticed. They often want, even need, for us to signal otherwise.

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1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

I feel you're taking a fairly odd, inflexible stance on what 'meaning', erm, means here. Symbolic gestures, as well as plain words, very often take on different or more specific nuances over even short periods of time, and very often were fluid to start with. I'd not say it was ever passive given the exact point was to performatively and visibly not participate in the anthem (there's a much easier passive way, most footballers do it!). There was huge fallout initially for Kaepernick over taking the knee, much of it clearly or more insidiously related to his race, and very quickly others were taking the knee in a show of solidarity to him over how he and indeed black people generally are treated when they are perceived to step out of line. I can't say I religiously track American culture, but I've never been aware of this very specific meaning you describe. For as long as taking the knee has been in my consciousness, I have understood it to be a show of solidarity for oppressed black people, of hostility to that oppression, and a general (imo deserved!) "**** you" to white America. Much how you don't have to be a Black Panther or to want a race war or segregation to raise a fist.

I can't see any logic at all to a suggestion this meaning can't expand and survive a trip over the Atlantic ...

I do agree though that I would love to see more explicit, even more aggressive political support for BLM or, for example, the numerous bail funds.

No and very much Yes.
Taking a knee is a football term, and had no other meaning until 2016.  The US national anthem at US club football games is not the same as the national anthem in Soccer internationals.  It is every game and you can't get away with daydreaming or not singing the words.  The point was simple - Kaepernick was being forced to stand up for an anthem to a country he did not believe treated its citizens fairly, and he refused.

But take away the music and occasion and I entirely agree that taking a knee is a direct insult to the USA, its anthem, its people, its self-perceived place in the world.
It is an insult to Liverpool's owners, the Washington Red Sox fans, to Bruce Buck, to Walt Disney.  Entirely appropriate if you are say, Iranian, Venezuelan (who starve through US backed sanctions), Syrian or even Chinese.  
An option for you or me as private Brits.  But it is a much much bigger statement than I think even the black players at Liverpool or Chelsea wanted to make.

These players are either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid.  

This was a later release by Chelsea, highlighting BLM etc, with picture but avoiding any direct mention of the US as a target, let alone the anthem.
https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2020/06/02/chelsea-players-take-a-knee--azpilicueta-stresses--racism-has-to

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

Not a fan of this attitude, and I'm generally very big on cynicism. It might look pathetic or meaningless to you, but to people on the receiving end of racism (I feel confident that you're white, because like me you're a ST holder and let's face it, most of us are! Apologies if not) one of the hardest things about it can be that it just seems to be tolerated, ignored, not even noticed. They often want, even need, for us to signal otherwise.

Virtue signalling of the worst kind.  They clearly have no idea that they are insulting the whole US when they actually just want to support black people (even supporting BLM gets into politics that is beyond them).  They are just joining in on an internet meme they don't understand.

This is very very much "Je suis Charlie" which as I pointed out repeatedly was support for an edgy and unpleasant magazine's right to be racist.  People who care more about being seen to be virtuous than understanding the issue.

Edited by Droy was my hero

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19 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

... Taking a knee is a football term, and had no other meaning until 2016.  The US national anthem at US club football games is not the same as the national anthem in Soccer internationals.  It is every game and you can't get away with daydreaming or not singing the words.  The point was simple - Kaepernick was being forced to stand up for an anthem to a country he did not believe treated its citizens fairly, and he refused ...

But take away the music and occasion and I entirely agree that taking a knee is a direct insult to the USA, its anthem, its people, its self-perceived place in the world.
It is an insult to Liverpool's owners, the Washington Red Sox fans, to Bruce Buck, to Walt Disney.  Entirely appropriate if you are say, Iranian, Venezuelan (who starve through US backed sanctions), Syrian or even Chinese ...

... Virtue signalling of the worst kind.  They clearly have no idea that they are insulting the whole US when they actually just want to support black people (even supporting BLM gets into politics that is beyond them).  They are just joining in on an internet meme they don't understand ...

Snipped just for brevity and to reply to specific points (I've never figure out how to quote only parts of a post).

Veering away from ridiculing Liverpool here into straightforward politics (hopefully tolerable given the circumstances and that everyone is being respectful), but I go back to the meaning not being as concrete or easy to pin down as you're suggesting. It is an insult to America. Of course many Americans will be infuriated by pictures of people taking the knee across the world. But many Americans won't. Many Americans aren't especially happy with what 'America' is, means or stands for, and don't feel that the America they have is their America. There are plenty of Americans who, odd as it sounds, are perfectly okay with this insult, who see it as an assault not on them or their beliefs or their own idealised version of America, but on this somehow 'other' America. I think it's a stretch to consider non-Americans who haven't been recently negatively affected by American actions to be perpetrating a grave insult that requires bravery or stupidity by taking the knee. Really, what are the likely consequences of Liverpool or Chelsea posting pictures of players taking the knee beyond eliciting feelings in people? I'd be confident saying there won't be any.

I think lots of people know very well they are saying "**** you" to America (either the nation state or, more abstractly, the concept) and are completely okay with it. I'm not sure that, right now, supporting black people and being hostile towards America can really be considered separate things. 

 

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32 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I think lots of people know very well they are saying "**** you" to America (either the nation state or, more abstractly, the concept) and are completely okay with it. I'm not sure that, right now, supporting black people and being hostile towards America can really be considered separate things. 

If the players really do think they are saying "**** you" to America then I applaud them for their bravery.  If only the EU were as brave.  I don't think they do, and the Chelsea 2nd release very clearly implies that the club is trying to present it as something quite different.

As I say either very brave and doing something one hell of a lot more than virtue signalling, or virtue signalling idiots. 

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