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Taking The Pee Out Of Liverpool (For Khobar)

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Its an odd one this , I have black and asian friends and have had for years so I think you can get a bit cocooned into thinking everyone has a diversity of friendships and that everyone is like you , I have also been to America and to a man found everyone to be not just nice but tripping over themselves to be kind and helpful so from the outside its very difficult to imagine the way black people are treated there , but again , I'm as white as it's possible to be , I'm almost opaque !

From the outside I feel the problems lie not with the general population , they have the KKK like we have our NF to contend with , but with the Police who appear to being utilised not to "protect and serve" but as a paramilitary organisation many of who seem to be members of the KKK and more importantly a president with the intellect of a fourteen your old **** kicking retard .

A fish rots from the head down and Trump is rotten .

I'm glad our players are standing up for black people , I'm hoping that they're standing against the two faced politicians of america and not the people of America .

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chara   

I live in America...been here over 20 years so not blinded by first flush of contact.....

Problems?...of course.....I too have "Black Friends".........ordinary not unusual situation in real America....not rich spoilt but same as most "white friends"...worked hard got what they have by working for it....Protests in Denver BUT Denver is not Colorado anymore than NY is NY State.

I DO feel insulted by Chelsea and others taking the knee....not because I can't see the real issues here..and elsewhere... but because it addresses nothing..hate Trump hate USA if you so desire..that is a priceless freedom..try that in Murcia circa 1946 for instance.

If not for USA I would be speaking German..Europe would never have been rebuilt.....not a small thing....

So much protest but no answers proposed..do something...yep...any suggestions?....".wait..lets break into a store and steal stuff....ok here's a food market..lets get some food..are you crazy..heres a store with designer nike boots..."

And the nice supportive Brits etc raise a hand in "solidarity".....grow up and address the real issues properly.

I'm done here and with Chelsea..........

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59 minutes ago, chara said:

And the nice supportive Brits etc raise a hand in "solidarity".....grow up and address the real issues properly.

Well yes, there are a whole bunch of issues.  And in many of the worst things that the US has done, the UK has been wholly complicit without anyone raising a word.

4 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

A fish rots from the head down and Trump is rotten .

Washington has been rotten for decades, (Biden has been rotten for decades), hard to see what the new kid in town has done to be accused.

52 minutes ago, chara said:

If not for USA I would be speaking German

You certainly have been in the US a long time.  The US (and for that matter UK or France) played a minor role in WW2 in Europe.  Without the US the Germans would be speaking Russian perhaps, certainly the Germans spent the last part of the war fighting Russia not the Western allies.

 

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1 hour ago, chara said:

I'm done here and with Chelsea..........

This would be a great shame. I do hope you continue to post (and I've no doubt you'll continue to follow Chelsea ... None of us get out that easy!)

32 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

Well yes, there are a whole bunch of issues.  And in many of the worst things that the US has done, the UK has been wholly complicit without anyone raising a word.

I think people have had a thing or two to say about it tbf. How and why the very similar issues have never or only very rarely manifested over here quite as they have in America in recent days ... Well, that's a big question I don't have an answer to. I do think there's something to what Mark says about the police in America being politically weaponised in a very different way to how they ever have been here. The thing that has struck me about the footage is just how many coppers each state has, and how well resourced they are ... We have sizeable towns here without a patrol car to send round at night!

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paulw66   
8 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

 

Not a fan of this attitude, and I'm generally very big on cynicism. It might look pathetic or meaningless to you, but to people on the receiving end of racism (I feel confident that you're white, because like me you're a ST holder and let's face it, most of us are! Apologies if not) one of the hardest things about it can be that it just seems to be tolerated, ignored, not even noticed. They often want, even need, for us to signal otherwise.

Honestly though, what does any of this achieve? No wrongs are undone and no victims of racism are any better off, while it has given a load of people an excuse to help themselves to a new pair of Nike trainers, and destroy businesses (many of which are owned by black people).  

FWIW, the biggest killer of black people in America is........black people. Moreover, per captia far more whites are murdered by blacks than the other way around, yet we are all trying to be made to feel guilty for some reason about US police brutality.  Meanwhile a black, retired police officer was shot and killed yesterday in Las Vegas by a black protestor (looter)......how is any of this helping anybody? 

Interesting stat I saw yesterday, posted by a black man incidentally, that in the US, for every 10k black people arrested, 3 die in custody. For every 10k whites, 4 die in custody. As mentioned in another post, where was the outcry when Tony Timpa was killed by Texan police?

And what has any of this got to do with football over here? as Jane pointed out, who decides what is worthy of this sort of outcry? That poor 7 year old girl got stabbed to death in Bolton a few weeks ago....... or what about all those poor girls who were victim of the Rotherham gromming gangs? There was less response from the football world after the kids were killed in the Manchester bombings at the Ariana Grande concert. these are just 3 examples closer to home....... what about human rights violations in China and Korea? Where do you stop with this stuff........ 

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paulw66   
5 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

 

A fish rots from the head down and Trump is rotten .

 

Racism and police brutality in the US has been around long before Trump was born. 

The left are happy to use this as Trump-bashing exercise like he created all of these problems. It's election year. 

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7 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

How and why the very similar issues have never or only very rarely manifested over here quite as they have in America in recent days ..

The cross culture anger is much the same.  We said up yours Delors, Westminster and Brussels by voting Brexit and Boris.  A clear sign of anger and the absence of any politician that identified with the majority with no increases in wealth during the last doubling of GDP.
US voted for Trump and promised well paid  jobs in coal mines again.  The general rage against the machine is being acted on.  France has its riots (albeit no one reports about them or the Police violence)
The specific black thing is simply guns.  We have sus laws, they have shootings.   Different scale.

10 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I do think there's something to what Mark says about the police in America being politically weaponised in a very different way to how they ever have been here.

Perhaps - but mostly it is the whole population that is weaponised, leaving every policeman on the street terrified at being shot at.  This is Policing in much the same way as the US policed Iraq and continues in Afghanistan.  If blacks for any reason are 10% more likely than a white to attack a Policeman, then they are the ones Police will unload on.

 

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paulw66   

And now these morons are attacking the police in central London. 

There were thousands of protestors today in Hyde Park during a pandemic that is far more dangerous to the BAME community. Darwin award right there. 

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16 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Honestly though, what does any of this achieve? No wrongs are undone and no victims of racism are any better off, while it has given a load of people an excuse to help themselves to a new pair of Nike trainers, and destroy businesses (many of which are owned by black people).  

FWIW, the biggest killer of black people in America is........black people. Moreover, per captia far more whites are murdered by blacks than the other way around, yet we are all trying to be made to feel guilty for some reason about US police brutality.  Meanwhile a black, retired police officer was shot and killed yesterday in Las Vegas by a black protestor (looter)......how is any of this helping anybody? 

Interesting stat I saw yesterday, posted by a black man incidentally, that in the US, for every 10k black people arrested, 3 die in custody. For every 10k whites, 4 die in custody. As mentioned in another post, where was the outcry when Tony Timpa was killed by Texan police?

And what has any of this got to do with football over here? as Jane pointed out, who decides what is worthy of this sort of outcry? That poor 7 year old girl got stabbed to death in Bolton a few weeks ago....... or what about all those poor girls who were victim of the Rotherham gromming gangs? There was less response from the football world after the kids were killed in the Manchester bombings at the Ariana Grande concert. these are just 3 examples closer to home....... what about human rights violations in China and Korea? Where do you stop with this stuff........ 

On the one hand I'm wary of responding because of the forum rules and the thread we're in. It's a small shame this discussion isn't in, idk, the media thread. On the other hand, I think it's an important conversation and everyone has been respectful so far, so I'll chance it. 

In terms of what it achieves ... Well, I literally already said. It offers a sense of acknowledgement, of being seen to a group of people who consistently describe the feeling of not being seen. That may not in itself manifest into a more tangible change and perhaps therefore isn't meaningful by some people's standards, but I struggle to understand positions like those. Who among us honestly takes or feels nothing when someone else even just notices our pain?

42 per every million African Americans were killed in police shootings between 2013 and 2019, by far the greatest proportion in any ethnic group and 3 times more likely than those identified as white. Over 17% of those were unarmed, again a far greater percentage than those identified as white. More of them were killed by off-duty police officers than any other ethnic group. 98% of those killings had no criminal or disciplinary follow up. Surveys consistently show similar levels of self-reported criminality (for example, drug use) across black and white populations in America, and yet significantly more black people are arrested, tested and charged in relation to these crimes. There are five times as many black Americans in prison than their are white Americans, despite there being more than four times as many white people in America. I don't want to be rude or dismissive, but there is not an argument to be had about the disproportionate application of police and criminal justice force on black people.

Broadly speaking, there are two main explanations. One is that black people are just somehow, by virtue of their blackness, much more likely to behave in a way that means they are more likely to get shot by police or end up in jail. I don't think any of us come even close to thinking that. The second is what, to be frank, all sensible and creditable science and human history tells us; that the inherent similarities between the physiology and cognition of people from different races is overwhelmingly more similar than it is different and as such those huge differences in, for example, killing or incarceration rates is caused by something else. It's that something else that people are mad as hell about. Is the way some people are being mad about it going to be useful? Who knows. Protest, riots and looting actually have far greater historical precedent for provoking political and social change (even if this is not consciously or purposefully the intention of those taking part) than they ever seem to get credit for when situations like what we're seeing in America happen. So few of the basic rights many of us hold dear were from start to finish negotiated pleasantly over a table.

What I don't understand about the statistics in your post is ... What are they meant to establish? That black people are just as bad and naughty as white people, that they do bad things too, sometimes lots of very bad things? I think most people get that. This isn't, or at least should not, be considered or framed as being about black people versus white people. I can't help but be drawn to your line about being "made to feel guilty". I don't feel guilty, and I don't feel like anyone wants me to be. I feel sad. I don't want any group of people to be more likely to die, or be killed, or kill other people, or be in prison, or live in fear. I think what black people want from me is help, not an apology.

I don't know really how to respond to your last point. Is it hypocritical or undermining in some way to care more or devote more energy to one cause than another? Yeah, probably. So what? What is the alternative? Not caring about anything? Are the only options, if we want to be perceived as authentic and having integrity, to either not both with anything or to rage with incandescent political fury about literally everything 24/7?

I've just realised now how long this post is, so will knock it on the head. I've said my bit and am happy to carry on in a PM if needed.

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18 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I've just realised now how long this post is, so will knock it on the head. I've said my bit and am happy to carry on in a PM if needed.

Great post - and if you go PM you'll have to find a way of including half a dozen of us.
One nerdy arithmetic quibble There are five times as many black Americans in prison than their are white Americans, Proportionately.   despite there being more than four times as many white people in America.  Still shocking.
Prison I agree is a real issue.  In UK there are almost twice as many BAME prisoners proportionately as whites.  But the totals are much much smaller.  There are 707 people in US prisons per 100k pop, five times the England/Wales rate of 148.  Half the US prisoners have not sentenced yet.  
At the 2010 census 4490 black adults per 100k black male pop were in prison.  4.49% of male blacks actually in prison (more if you compare adults to just adults).

Prison (drug laws), guns and a complete failure of the past 30 years to care for the bottom half of the population.

 

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