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Victor Moses

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3 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Depends what your definition of success and failure is really. I think it has taken a few years to tweak but, some examples

Lukaku and KdB - bought for £20m, sold for £45m

Courtois - picked up for £7m, developed for 3 years on loan

Moses - took a while, but is now very much a first team player

Christiensen - could well be a first team regular, or could be sold for big money (if reports are to be believed)

Ake - has had two years PL football under his belt, now part of the squad. Could have been sold for £18m

Bamford - sold for £8m

Chalobah - mixed loans but now seems to be a squad option

Abraham - had a brilliant 2/3 of season scoring goals in the championship

There are others (Baker, Palmer etc) but If you take the last 5 on the list, what would they have done without a loan(s)? Continued playing U21 football and not progressing? 

Of course there are a bunch of failures, but that is always going to happen. 

Even players like Kalas, Piazon, Brown, Atsu will be moved on for decent money I expect 

At this point in time, the only loan players that can be considered a success are KDB, Lukaku and Courtois imo. 

Moses loan stints where largely disappointing and he didn't really progress during those three years. Is he a better player today compared to three years ago? 

Bamford? Bought for 5 sold for 8. Take salary in that period plus agent fees and we'd have made a solid loss overall. 

The jury is still very much out on the rest. 

Considering we have 30-35 players on loan per season, the conversion rate is pretty darn lousy I'd say. 

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paulw66   
1 hour ago, Sleeping Dave said:

At this point in time, the only loan players that can be considered a success are KDB, Lukaku and Courtois imo. 

Moses loan stints where largely disappointing and he didn't really progress during those three years. Is he a better player today compared to three years ago? 

Bamford? Bought for 5 sold for 8. Take salary in that period plus agent fees and we'd have made a solid loss overall. 

The jury is still very much out on the rest. 

Considering we have 30-35 players on loan per season, the conversion rate is pretty darn lousy I'd say. 

In respect of line 1, I would say Ake, Christiensen and Abraham have all been unequivocal success stories at their loan clubs, and all three could be sold for very, very good money. I don't want that to happen BTW. 

Bamford for bought for 1,5m 

Talking about "conversion rate" what does that mean? You can't loan out 30 players and expect half to be first team players. My original question stands, how are you qualifying a "success"?

The best 18 year olds or so get too good for the U21 league, but not good enough to play for Chelsea. So what do you do? You have to loan them out or they stagnate. A success (in the eyes of the club and player moreover) could be that he is loaned out for 3 seasons, then is sold for a healthy fee and carves a decent career for themselves somewhere. PL, Championship, Bundesliga, whatever......... The conversion rate of young players getting into OUR first team squad is always going to be low as the standard is so high 

 

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6 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Is there a logic to the loan system? 

Someone should ask Emenalo. Seems like ludicrous empire-building activity on his behalf if you ask me. 

The whole loan system malarkey has been a massive failure imo. 

There is no "loan system".  The loan system is just where various projects go for a while before they either fail or succeed or do neither (the living dead as called by Venture capitalists, too good to close down, not good enough to make much money).

There are actual programs run by the club - getting in kids U14 free, getting them at 16 for a small fee, bringing in kids at 17 or 18 for real money, getting 19/21yos who already play U21 for their country, and getting established young internationals.
These are the programs that should be judged.

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The impact of Conte has been terrific on Moses. The confidence shown by the gaffer has paid dividends and Moses has finally found his places. Even before his loan spell I thought he has what it takes to be to play regularly for a big club like Chelsea.  

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On 2 March 2017 at 6:31 PM, paulw66 said:

In respect of line 1, I would say Ake, Christiensen and Abraham have all been unequivocal success stories at their loan clubs, and all three could be sold for very, very good money. I don't want that to happen BTW. 

Bamford for bought for 1,5m 

Talking about "conversion rate" what does that mean? You can't loan out 30 players and expect half to be first team players. My original question stands, how are you qualifying a "success"?

The best 18 year olds or so get too good for the U21 league, but not good enough to play for Chelsea. So what do you do? You have to loan them out or they stagnate. A success (in the eyes of the club and player moreover) could be that he is loaned out for 3 seasons, then is sold for a healthy fee and carves a decent career for themselves somewhere. PL, Championship, Bundesliga, whatever......... The conversion rate of young players getting into OUR first team squad is always going to be low as the standard is so high 

 

A conversion rate to begin with would be to have had one (yes one) player bought into (or brought through) the academy system, being sent out on loan and then coming back at some stage to be a proper squad option. 

Courtois, KDB and Lukau don't qualify for that. Out of the three, only one was a success. 

Who else is there? Ake and Chalobah are in the fringes and who knows whether either will be part of our squad even met season. Tammy? Yes good loan. But we've had quite a few of those cases and where are they now? 

If the loan system is designed to send players on in their careers for a loss then it's just a waste of time. And I totally get that it's not easy to break into Chelsea. But that's not an excuse for the loan system, it's an argument to ditch it imo. 

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13 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

If the loan system is designed to send players on in their careers for a loss then it's just a waste of time. And I totally get that it's not easy to break into Chelsea. But that's not an excuse for the loan system, it's an argument to ditch it imo. 

Do that and you just have to cut the number of non-first team squad players by about 25, and even then we would have no U20 players in our U23 team.

You are basically saying cut the Academy, cut out the promising 16 & 17 yos being brought in and cut out the half proven 18-22 yos as well, and just buy proven stars.  I'd agree with that actually - but I don't think many do.

 

 

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On 4/5/2017 at 1:43 AM, shadowman96 said:

The impact of Conte has been terrific on Moses. The confidence shown by the gaffer has paid dividends and Moses has finally found his places. Even before his loan spell I thought he has what it takes to be to play regularly for a big club like Chelsea.  

Tbh, for me the jury is still out regarding Moses. This season gone he's mostly been great for us, but he's also shown his limitations as well. I think that Conte will be looking for an upgrade if he wants to persist with this formation going forward, as he doesn't seem to see someone like Willian as an option (although I think that Azpilicueta may be). Frankly, I think that he may bring in some competition for Alonso on the other side, as well.

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1 minute ago, Michael Tucker said:

Tbh, for me the jury is still out regarding Moses. This season gone he's mostly been great for us, but he's also shown his limitations as well. I think that Conte will be looking for an upgrade if he wants to persist with this formation going forward, as he doesn't seem to see someone like Willian as an option (although I think that Azpilicueta may be). Frankly, I think that he may bring in some competition for Alonso on the other side, as well.

Moses has done well overall, but as you said, he has his limitations. Willian is rightly not an option, his defensively not solid enough in a tactical sense, while he's a player that likes to dribble and come inside frequently. What made Moses work was that he's a more conventional winger that will hug a touchline and it's crucial the WB's do this and maintain width stretching the play. For me, the simple solution is Azpi moves across. He's an excellent one-on-one defender, he can put a solid ball into the box and it negates the height issue he can be exposed for when at CB. 

Plus, far easier trying to find a quality CB than it is a quality WB in the transfer market. Although, we'll bring in someone to play LWB. No real choice with that one.

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34 minutes ago, zaffo said:

Plus, far easier trying to find a quality CB than it is a quality WB in the transfer market. Although, we'll bring in someone to play LWB. No real choice with that one.

And, we already have a ready-made one in Christensen.........:)

As for the left, I wonder if Ake has what it takes to play there? I know that he's pretty much seen as a CB, but I've seen him play well at left back/left wing-back. 

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2 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

And, we already have a ready-made one in Christensen.........:)

As for the left, I wonder if Ake has what it takes to play there? I know that he's pretty much seen as a CB, but I've seen him play well at left back/left wing-back. 

Christensen is still a bit of an unknown I suppose, in the sense of where in a back three he'd play. Not sure if he's left/right sided, or if he'd be a better fit down the middle which Luiz occupies. I suppose we'll find out. Overall though, he ticks the boxes. 

Ake played LWB briefly in a cup game iirc. Not sure how dynamic he is though in terms of getting up and down, while his usefulness in the final third is unknown. He could probably fill the role as a stopgap, but I think his future is either at CB or midfield. Although like Azpi, slightly undersized for my liking as a CB.

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