Michael Tucker

Chelsea 3 Arsenal 1

184 posts in this topic

The first time we saw it I had no idea whatsoever that Alonso had caught him , not surprised Atkinson didn't see it < I do think , having seen it again was the fact that Alonso got so much more height on his attack and Bellerin came under him that did the damage.

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I just can't see any scenario where Alonso's goal can be a foul. Eyes on the ball, you need to use your arms to jump and actually protect yourself from possibly being smashed. Just unfortunate what happens as one player 6ft 3in and the other not as tall as him. Obvious the smaller guy will come off worse, you can't penalise a player he happens to be taller than his direct opponent.

Pure deflection by Wenger

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2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

I can entertain the notion of a foul here, but not one of dangerous play. 

I think that is about right.

1 hour ago, Johnny Blue said:

FWIW, none of the commentators or pundits (including more back in studio) thought it was a foul (amazingly, Whinger not only saw it, but, not so surprisingly, thought it was a foul!).

fwiw is nothing - they didn't even mention the deliberate elbow by Gabriel on Hazard.

5 minutes ago, Zoowraa said:

I just can't see any scenario where Alonso's goal can be a foul. Eyes on the ball, you need to use your arms to jump and actually protect yourself from possibly being smashed. Just unfortunate what happens as one player 6ft 3in and the other not as tall as him. Obvious the smaller guy will come off worse, you can't penalise a player he happens to be taller than his direct opponent.

Pure deflection by Wenger

Eyes on ball is a defence.  Not so sure about having to use arms to jump.  If it is dangerous it is dangerous and refs have to stop players doing dangerous things.  This match was on live TV, and kids and park players were watching it closely.  They have to know that jumping with outstretched arms is dangerous and refs have a duty to show that to them.
More over,for every headed challenge in matches there must be a dozen in training games.  You don't see that kind of injury on a regular basis from training "accidents" because players and coaches police that kind of thing out of training games.  They would lead to fights on the training pitch every day.  So players can and shout avoid the dangerous challenges.

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6 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

I think that is about right.

fwiw is nothing - they didn't even mention the deliberate elbow by Gabriel on Hazard.

Eyes on ball is a defence.  Not so sure about having to use arms to jump.  If it is dangerous it is dangerous and refs have to stop players doing dangerous things.  This match was on live TV, and kids and park players were watching it closely.  They have to know that jumping with outstretched arms is dangerous and refs have a duty to show that to them.
More over,for every headed challenge in matches there must be a dozen in training games.  You don't see that kind of injury on a regular basis from training "accidents" because players and coaches police that kind of thing out of training games.  They would lead to fights on the training pitch every day.  So players can and shout avoid the dangerous challenges.

Regarding the second paragraph , you have mentioned this before and I think you have also answered it. Those type of scenarios are avoided in training, it's one thing a player injuring himself in that manner in a game, but too risk it in training is just stupid.

The training sessions I have seen footage of consist of organisation , team shape and passing drills in short spaces. Obviously more to it than that basic description, but very little in the way of aerial challenges I would imagine in this day and age at the highest level. Partly because it's virtually impossible to jump and contest without using your arms, unless you want to naively get smashed .

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2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

The first time we saw it I had no idea whatsoever that Alonso had caught him , not surprised Atkinson didn't see it < I do think , having seen it again was the fact that Alonso got so much more height on his attack and Bellerin came under him that did the damage.

Thought that myself first time round. Bellerin came up into a taller player..seemed to be more of a collision as two players converged rather than both challenging in the same place. From the stands it would be impossible for the winger to get a proper view.

The Gabriel attack was just that..indefensible.

On a lighter note if you missed Conte's reactions during the first goal..an air header as the first one hit the bar and a second one as Alonso headed in..check it out...priceless..

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1 hour ago, Droy was my hero said:

Eyes on ball is a defence.  Not so sure about having to use arms to jump.  If it is dangerous it is dangerous and refs have to stop players doing dangerous things.  This match was on live TV, and kids and park players were watching it closely.  They have to know that jumping with outstretched arms is dangerous and refs have a duty to show that to them.
More over,for every headed challenge in matches there must be a dozen in training games.  You don't see that kind of injury on a regular basis from training "accidents" because players and coaches police that kind of thing out of training games.  They would lead to fights on the training pitch every day.  So players can and shout avoid the dangerous challenges.

When you're taught to head the ball, you're taught to jump with your arms out slightly to protect yourself and for balance.  Jumping without your arms slightly up is actually a very unnatural motion for the body.  You have to actually physically hold your arms down.  That's part of the reason that kids are taught to jump with their arms up.  A) to protect from other people's arms and B) its a natural body motion

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Collateral damage with a 50/50 decision, but given it amounted to a goal, it would've been harsh to cancel it.  Although I'm sure we all would've said yes it's a foul if the tables were turned.  Alex Shaw put it best... "Basically, nearly every Arsenal fan says it's a foul. Nearly everyone else says it's not."

Bellerin couldn't not try and defend the attack, at least he tried unlike Walcott.  At the same time I'd be very displeased if Alonso went "after you, kind sir".

All that aside, it's been hyped up largely by Arsene, and fans simply to overshadow our domination of their team, and we shouldn't entertain it.  Anyway, even if Alonso did have his header cancelled, our performance would've still produced a similar scoreline IMO.

I'd prefer to focus on the superb effort by Hazard (I just can't get over just how much he embarrassed Coquelin), positional awareness of the AM's, the strong Matic-Kante duo, Moses, Fabs lob, hell all of them put a shift in.  How confident are we getting with Courtois now when the oppo tries to post it out of reach.  His Insta is full of those types of saves, so I'm not really surprised his pulling them off on the field.

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A defender is always in trouble in this kind of situation. Alonso climes much higher because his forward momentum and critically the use of his arms to get there. If Bellerin uses his arms that high and the ball happens to hit them it's at the risk of a pen being given. Bellerins best move considering a goal was imminent was a crafty tug of Alonso shirt to put him off balance. if the ref was blind sided he much more likely get away with that than a flailing arm hitting the ball.  

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Bellerin challenged for a ball that was never his to win, he should have backed into Alonso and put him off from getting a head on the ball, he saw Alonso and tried to jump in the way of a player who has momentum on his side; that's the same as trying to go for a 50/50 slide tackle without having a run up into it whilst the other guy comes in at full speed, most of the time the one with momentum will win and the other guy will be levelled out.

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As regards the first goal. Never a foul in the PL and probably not on the continent.

Just a good leap from a bigger and more aerially adept player against a smaller and less adept opponent. Wenger would be better focused on Walcott's defensive ineptitude (some might add offensive ineptitude as well!!) and Ozil's flinging in the towel in the second half. However Wenger will try to deflect away from his teams shortcomings, as is his normal modus-operandi. Sorry for Bellarin, he was was the only player they had trying to defend the second ball, if Walcott had followed Alonso in and simply blocked the run Bellarin has a free header. Bellarin last season did a really decent thing at our home game, he cleared the ball and unintentionally it hit a young girl near me, smack in the face - she was in tears, a little bit hurt and shocked. After half-time and before the start of the second-half he came out and gave the girl his first-half shirt, a hug and made sure she was OK, noteworthy.

Back on the jumping for the ball, defenders are coached to jump with their (our, as I was once one) leading arm up, particularly when attacking the ball with the attacker in front of you. Two reasons, the first one being jump early and the attacker when he go's for the ball jumps against you arm and helps you stay up and it also prevents him getting height on his jump, the second to attempt to protect you. Forwards now will try to get a running jump from the side, from long clearances they will have a wide starting position moving into the area where the ball is kicked into, defenders to counter this will attempt the same but from inside to out and have both arms up. 

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