Michael Tucker

Chelsea 3 Arsenal 1

184 posts in this topic

If an arm prevents a ball going in, the chances are it would be seen as being in an 'unnatural position', so the ref would adjudge it to be intentional. If it is by the player's side and does not move towards the ball refs should consider it accidental and wave play on.

A foul does not have to be intentional to be a foul. Sometimes a player can be brought down but not fouled, as refs see it as players 'coming together' (ooh err), which means both players are held responsible for the contact so neither player is penalised. Lots of accidental fouls lead to freekicks, pens and even red cards. I remember Ivan getting sent off for bringing down Hernandez the other year when he made no attempt to tackle him but accidentally brushed his leg as he was running after him..

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While we are at it, what happens if a ball is crossed into the box and a player attempts a bicycle kick (Pele like) ,connects with the ball and scores, but also connects with the head of of a defender who is trying to clear the ball at head height and knocks him out cold. Goal or dangerous play? And what if same maneuver was done in the centre circle . 

 

The precedent of Diaby bootng JT in the head, knocking him out cold but not making any contact with the ball suggests that refs can safely ignore that and wave play on, but maybe blow up so the injured player can receive life-saving treatment. (See also Cech and Cudicini at Reading in JM's first spell.). This laissez-faire approach to inflicting serious head injuries may not be consistently applied with all teams, however, and it could be a specific Chelsea thing.

Edited by Backbiter

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17 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

What about if a ball is goal bound and it hits a defenders arm/hand (ball to hand) on the line which prevents it going in the goal. That defender then takes his good fortune and boots the ball clear. Any punishment? I don't know the answer I'm just asking the various football minds out there.

Technically not a goal, but you'd have a mutiny 

9 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

While we are at it, what happens if a ball is crossed into the box and a player attempts a bicycle kick (Pele like) ,connects with the ball and scores, but also connects with the head of of a defender who is trying to clear the ball at head height and knocks him out cold. Goal or dangerous play? And what if same maneuver was done in the centre circle . 

Foul, I suppose, but like the Costa goal at Swansea, difficult to give if someone has just smashed it in the top corner

2 minutes ago, Backbiter said:

 

The precedent of Diaby bootng JT in the head, knocking him out cold but not making any contact with the ball suggests that refs can safely ignore that and wave play on, but maybe blow up so the injured player can receive life-saving treatment. (See also Cech and Cudicini at Reading in JM's first spell.). This laissez-faire approach to inflicting serious head injuries may not be consistently applied with all teams, however, and it could be a specific Chelsea thing.

The JT incident was different, his head was very low IIRC

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33 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

 

The JT incident was different, his head was very low IIRC

You recall wrongly:

 

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/I/?img=/soccernet/design05/images/2015/0423/terrydiaby2004_800x450.jpg&w=738&site=espnfc

 

However, it doesn't matter how low his head was. Players' ankles are inches off the ground but if you kick them, even accidentally, you have committed a foul.

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7 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Technically not a goal, but you'd have a mutiny 

Foul, I suppose, but like the Costa goal at Swansea, difficult to give if someone has just smashed it in the top corner

The JT incident was different, his head was very low IIRC

Which I suppose is a similar reason as to why Alonso goal could have stood. His intention was only to score and not knock a player out cold.  

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8 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Technically not a goal, but you'd have a mutiny 

Foul, I suppose, but like the Costa goal at Swansea, difficult to give if someone has just smashed it in the top corner

The JT incident was different, his head was very low IIRC

Saw it happen to a JT goal bound effort (I think last season). Players hand stopped it going in the goal... no pen and play waved on.  JT far more gracious about it than he should have been.

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18 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Is intention part of the decision for a foul?  And does outjumping someone excuse knocking them over before you get to the ball?

 

You are right it's a bit like saying the guilty party in a car crash never 'intended' it to happen - it does't matter they are still responsible;so I will concede that on reflection,but I still maintain it was not a foul as eloquently put by Blue Rod.

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There are two facts here, the rest is speculation;

1) Alonso's forearm connected with Bellerin's head before heading the ball.

2) Bellerin was knocked unconscious.

As has been said before, if that happened on the half way line nobody would be surprised if a free kick was given. 

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1 hour ago, Ham said:

There are two facts here, the rest is speculation;

1) Alonso's forearm connected with Bellerin's head before heading the ball.

2) Bellerin was knocked unconscious.

As has been said before, if that happened on the half way line nobody would be surprised if a free kick was given. 

Point 2 is irrelevant IMO

Mason was knocked unconscious by Cahill. Foul? No

Luiz didn't have his leg broken by Aguero, but does that make the foul any less severe? 

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7 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Point 2 is irrelevant IMO

Mason was knocked unconscious by Cahill. Foul? No

Luiz didn't have his leg broken by Aguero, but does that make the foul any less severe? 

One was a clash of heads. One was caused by a leading forearm Paul.  Big difference.

Also, the relevence of the player being knocked out is that Refs often react to that fact and then consider whether a foul was committed. The fact that the ball ended up in the net has distracted everybody from the incident which led to it. 

You're saying "Foul?  No".   That's just an opinion, as is mine. 

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