• Current Donation Goals

Michael Tucker

Danny Drinkwater

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, chiswickblue said:

None of those 4 are well-suited to playing the number 8 position we need to make the 3-5-2 work better. Lampard would be perfect alongside Kanté and Fabregas with Hazard and Morata ahead of him.

For this reason 3-4-3 should remain our default unless we're really trying to strangle the life out of a match.

Spot on imo. We become far too reliant on Hazard and Morata in the 352 with the current set of CMs and WBs. 

 

4 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

And 343 means Fabregas becomes more of a liability defensively and our midfield easier to overpower. It also provides the defence with less protection than the 352 as the CMs aren't able to help cover the wingbacks as effectively, while it also sees Hazard play further away from Morata and waters down the partnership they've formed. 

None of them need to play the number 8 position. Sure, someone who has a bit more polish in the final third would be nice to have at CM, but what we have is alright for now and still provides us with a better balance overall. In addition it allows us to utilise Fabregas more effectively, and we've seen Hazard and Morata's partnership grow. 

343 was our default until it became clear the faults with that and we were being exposed by sides like Burnley and Palace. Since the move to 352 we've looked a far more cohesive side and thus put in better performances for it. Like it or not, that's the reality of the situation. 343 won't be scrapped, but it's going to be more selectively used going forward. 

The 343 doesn't fit Fabregas badly imo. If he can't be in a team consisting of five defenders and Kante he's virtually useless. 

We both know he's not. 

It was a totally different story when he was playing in a 4231 with an ageing and slowing defense (Ivan, JT) and four out and out attacking players. 

Have we started a single game this season with two of Azpi/Cahill/Luiz/Christensen/Luiz, Moses, Alonso, Fabregas, Kante and Morata, Pedro, Willian and Hazard? That's what you are comparing it to. 

 

4 hours ago, chiswickblue said:

The current 3-5-2 leaves us woefully short of goals in the starting XI - goals either come from Morata, Hazard or set pieces. We need a number 8 if we're going to play 3 in the middle more often or we play 3-4-3 and increase our chances by having Fabregas, Hazard, Willian/Pedro and Morata in the same team.

All of this depends on the cover provided by Kanté. If he's not available 3-5-2 is our only option.

The key to all of these formations is a larger squad - more AM options, another LWB, a 5th CM (number 8) and eventually another striker. Unless then we'll just be making do, as we are now.

Mirrors my views 100%. 

However I don't agree 352 is our only option if Kante is out injured. We could still be going 343 but wouldn't have a bench in terms of attacking players - which for me is the number one problem we have. Greater than any other issues - we simply don't have enough quality attcking players at our disposal. 

 

2 hours ago, Conte Kante said:

Drinkwater is proving himself to be a capable squad player, which a number of the more rounded posters on here knew he would be. 

If you didn't think Drinkwater would prove to be a good squad player than you had never heard of him or seen him play before. 

The questions raised when he was signed was whether that was what we should focus on. Buying yet another defensive minded CM/defenders? £35m isn't to be sniffed at - could we have gotten ourselves a proper AM option for that money and kept Chalobah as the fourth choice CM? Imo yes - we should have done that. 

Doesnt mean I can't see Drinkwater is a good PL player. You don't win the PL as a starting player without being a good player. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

The questions raised when he was signed was whether that was what we should focus on. Buying yet another defensive minded CM/defenders? £35m isn't to be sniffed at - could we have gotten ourselves a proper AM option for that money and kept Chalobah as the fourth choice CM? Imo yes - we should have done that. 

Doesnt mean I can't see Drinkwater is a good PL player. You don't win the PL as a starting player without being a good player. 

A few things here. First, Chabolah was not prepared to be a squad player anymore, he wanted to go somewhere where he would play regularly. So keeping him is a moot point as he was not prepared to play a squad role (whereas you have to guess Drinkwater was). Second, what other midfield options were available that we could actually have purchased? Three, if there is anyone that we should not have brought it is Bakayoko, he was ordinary last season and had a habit of disappearing in the Monaco side. Anyone that watched them regularly knew Fabinho was the player to get. As for Chabolah, my opinion is that he was a decent squad option but is overrated on here. For me, Drinkwater is a great CM4, who is a good option off the bench. Now if the question is Bakayoko vs Chabolah then that may have some validity as the thing we are really missing is a goal scoring midfielder/No.8 and those two players are about the same quality.  

Edited by Conte Kante

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Conte Kante said:

1. A few things here. First, Chabolah was not prepared to be a squad player anymore, he wanted to go somewhere where he would play regularly. So keeping him is a moot point as he was not prepared to play a squad role (whereas you have to guess Drinkwater was).

2. Second, what other midfield options were available that we could actually have purchased?

3. Three, if there is anyone that we should not have brought it is Bakayoko 

4. As for Chabolah, my opinion is that he was a decent squad option but is overrated on here. For me, Drinkwater is a great CM4, who is a good option off the bench. Now if the question is Bakayoko vs Chabolah then that may have some validity as the thing we are really missing is a goal scoring midfielder/No.8 and those two players are about the same quality.  

1. Wrong. Chalobah wanted to leave after Conte had asked him to go out on yet another loan. That's his what, sixth loan? 

2. What? Do you? No. So what point are you trying to make? That the defending PL champions can't buy an attacking player? Sounds like a bad excuse to be honest. 

3. Whatever. Drinkwater, Baka, they are both defensive midfielders. It wasn't DMs we lacked, it's AMs. 

4 Chalobah a goalscoring number 8? No wonder you don't seem to have placed him very well. He's no such thing. 

Edited by Sleeping Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xCELERYx   
10 hours ago, chiswickblue said:

The current 3-5-2 leaves us woefully short of goals in the starting XI - goals either come from Morata, Hazard or set pieces. We need a number 8 if we're going to play 3 in the middle more often or we play 3-4-3 and increase our chances by having Fabregas, Hazard, Willian/Pedro and Morata in the same team.

All of this depends on the cover provided by Kanté. If he's not available 3-5-2 is our only option.

The key to all of these formations is a larger squad - more AM options, another LWB, a 5th CM (number 8) and eventually another striker. Unless then we'll just be making do, as we are now.

That's debatable. 352 may mean an extra CM opposed to an AM - but that extra CM allows us to get the best out of Fabregas, while it allows Hazard and Morata to stay further upfield and work closer together. That in itself creates a better environment to create and score goals. The bonus is that it does so without either having to drop Fabregas for a 343 system and remove his passing and creativity altogether. Or force him into a two man CM role where his lack of athleticism and defensive impact can be greater exposed by opposition. If that extra CM that plays is Drinkwater, then it actually gives us another reasonably creative and polished player on the ball. If it's Bakayoko, then we've got a bit more physicality and ball-winning ability - while he's shown a knack of getting forward himself minus the finishing. Either the balance still remains the same overall in terms of shape and structure. We're not left being defensively exposed as much, nor as easily overrun in midfield. 

The other aspect is that while 343 may mean another AM on the pitch opposed to a CM, we've already seen this season that that alone doesn't mean more goals or creativity. Not when those AM aren't contributing enough in the final third to warrant unbalancing the side overall to accomodate them. 

Willian so far has a return of 1 goal and 1 assists in the league so far in 690 minutes of play. With a passing completion rate of 78%. 
Pedro so far as a return of 2 goals and 2 assists in the league so far in 593 minutes of play. With a passing completion rate of 83.5%.

That's a grand total of 3 goals and 3 assists from our two other AM's this season in 1283 minutes total - or 14.25 worth of games. 

Neither player really took their opportunities earlier in the season when given. Now that we've switched to 352, the onus is on them (Pedro/Willian) making sure in the games where they do get a chance they do perform to keep the 343 alive. If they don't then the incentive to play 343 lessens when the options on offer aren't delivering and 352 is going to end up being the greater focus. Not so bad for Pedro, as he's more equipped as a player because of his skillset and style to play just off Morata. Willian on the other hand sort of gets lost between the cracks. 

A larger squad is key to any system really. There's no doubt we still lack options in certain positions, the question is going to be more about which areas we'll look to strengthen realistically for this season. I'd say CF is the most likely, with LWB being next in line. Anything CM/AM related I can see being put on hold until next season because it's going to depend a lot on which system is going to be deemed our main one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, xCELERYx said:

That's debatable. 352 may mean an extra CM opposed to an AM - but that extra CM allows us to get the best out of Fabregas, while it allows Hazard and Morata to stay further upfield and work closer together. That in itself creates a better environment to create and score goals.

Ignoring the usual drivel about how bad Willian and Pedro are (or why we didn't replace them instead of buying CBs), why not just solve double shortage of midfield players and attacking players by picking just 2 CBs like we always did?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
xCELERYx   
6 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

The 343 doesn't fit Fabregas badly imo. If he can't be in a team consisting of five defenders and Kante he's virtually useless. 

We both know he's not. 

It was a totally different story when he was playing in a 4231 with an ageing and slowing defense (Ivan, JT) and four out and out attacking players. 

Have we started a single game this season with two of Azpi/Cahill/Luiz/Christensen/Luiz, Moses, Alonso, Fabregas, Kante and Morata, Pedro, Willian and Hazard? That's what you are comparing it to. 

You're sort of missing the point though, Dave. 

Sure, on paper Fabregas can fit the 343 fine. In reality though the situation is a little bit involved than just the position a player plays on paper. Regardless if we play with 3 CB's, 2 WB's and then Kante - that doesn't suddenly cover the responsibilities Fabregas' position holds. If one player, and Conte has spoken about this before, isn't able to meet the requirements of their role in the side then the rest of the side suffers because of it. The foundation ends up with cracks and that's when we get exposed. This can be gotten away with at times, but it's a very much a "pick your own battle" type of situation.

Fabregas lacks the athleticism and defensive skillset to comfortably play 343 against most sides. He can't just be good with the ball, the work he does off it is equally as important for the side as a whole. Both CM's need to make sure they cover their WB's and CB's and this requires leg speed and mobility. They need to control the middle of the park. Take up defensive positions on the pitch that doesn't allow sides to play through the middle at will. None of that is really what Fabregas excels at. Thus, he instantly becomes a liability unless we're against sides who simply lack the quality. The cohesiveness between the CM's is lost and Kante ends up needing to not only do his role, but also pick up the slack of Fabregas. Eventually, even Kante, as good as he is, will end up caught out himself. And when Kante is out, it can be a right disaster - see the home leg against Roma for example. 

If you notice in the games we do play 343 then you'll pick up how often Pedro actually drops back into a sort of faux CM to help cover that area. The problem is that he's hardly going to influence that part of the pitch all too much. 

352 on the other hand helps negate a lot of these issues because of that extra CM body. This means less space in the middle of the pitch. Fabregas's slack ends up being covered by two players - this divides the extra defensive workload between LCM and RCM opposed to just one player. In turn it means Fabregas has more freedom because the level of defensive responsibility lessens. And we as a side overall benefit from this.

This is why Pirlo was freaking effective for a lot of years. He was always utilised in a midfield three because it helped cover the similar weaknesses of a lack of mobility and defensive impact.

Edited by xCELERYx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Ignoring the usual drivel about how bad Willian and Pedro are (or why we didn't replace them instead of buying CBs), why not just solve double shortage of midfield players and attacking players by picking just 2 CBs like we always did?

I'd hazard a guess.

Probably because 3-5-2 is working.

We're not behind because it's not , we're behind because we haven't got enough players and many of our best ones were injured at the beginning of the season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

I'd hazard a guess.

Probably because 3-5-2 is working.

We're not behind because it's not , we're behind because we haven't got enough players and many of our best ones were injured at the beginning of the season.

3-5-2 is working because our 3 attacking players are fantastic, and long may this continue.

Longer term, and this probably means the second half of the season as well, we need a number 8 to add goals and more attacking midfielders to use the 3-4-3 option against defensive teams and when we're chasing the game.

We are slowly morphing into Conte's Juve midfield; Fabregas=Pirlo, Kanté=Vidal, Drinkwater=Marchisio, Bakayoko=Pogba? (not sure about the last one).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sea foot   

Not sure if this is the right thread for this but I think that the Danny Drinkwater signing was a very astute move. Has slotted in well and I think he will improve with time in the team. A real asset in midfield IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I'd hazard a guess.

Probably because 3-5-2 is working.

We're not behind because it's not , we're behind because we haven't got enough players and many of our best ones were injured at the beginning of the season.

Not as well as 343 works for us.  And probably not as well as 433 would if we had the players.  

17 minutes ago, Sea foot said:

Not sure if this is the right thread for this but I think that the Danny Drinkwater signing was a very astute move. Has slotted in well and I think he will improve with time in the team. A real asset in midfield IMO.

Quite right, a very pleasant surprise for me.  But he has certainly been helped by the comparisons with Bakayoko who has been a big disappointment after looking quite good for a few games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now