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2017/18 predictions

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On 21/09/2017 at 7:02 PM, Ham said:

Surely you're confusing us standing still or going backwards with other clubs now having billionaire benefactors also.

It's all relative.

 

No, the decline compared to 2003-2007 started well before other clubs had their own benefactors. 

Roman managed to keep up our dominance for 3-4 seasons. Then his inexperience meant more than the money he had in his pockets. The rest of the league were rebuilding (well Man U and Arsenal) and once Man U had finished building Fergies last team they won 5/7 league titles before he retired. In the season before, and for the subsequent 7 seasons, Man U had a net spend of £105m. 

We spent around £250m in the same time period. 

 

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Ham   
4 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

No, the decline compared to 2003-2007 started well before other clubs had their own benefactors. 

Roman managed to keep up our dominance for 3-4 seasons. Then his inexperience meant more than the money he had in his pockets. The rest of the league were rebuilding (well Man U and Arsenal) and once Man U had finished building Fergies last team they won 5/7 league titles before he retired. In the season before, and for the subsequent 7 seasons, Man U had a net spend of £105m. 

We spent around £250m in the same time period. 

 

City were taken over in 2008 which coincides with your supposed decline. They started outspending us 5 minutes later. Soon after oligarchs appeared all over the place, particularly in the east.  

Of course Man U had to start hitting back. They're one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world.

They didn't necessarily need to outspend us over that period as they have a draw like Barca and Real. Players naturally want to join them. 

We had money but we always lost out on big players like Modric.  We were never in for Bale or Ronaldo. We have to accept our place in the pecking order. That's not necessarily mismanagement or a decline. 

None of the biggest clubs in the world win everything over a sustained period of time. Even Bayern had a mini decline and let Dortmund in for a while.

We have no God given right to win anything anymore as the playing field has been leveled and yet we've won two of the last three premier league titles.

Yes we could and should have won two other CL trophies. It's not Roman's fault that JT missed that penalty and he could do nothing about a piss poor performance against Monaco where we would have gone on to beat Porto 

Fine margins and we could have had the legacy you think you deserve.

 

 

 

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Sciatika   
33 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Not sure what point you're trying to make. I'd assume you aren't trying to tell us that we haven't been let down and lost titles due to squad size.

Increasing squad size may give you a better chance to win but you cannot say that a larger squad would have guaranteed winning things we didn't win. The point about Cleopatra's nose is that events in history as not always a simple chain of cause and effect - sometimes there are also chance factors that come into play. That is why history cannot be used to predict things.  For instance, if we had increased the squad size, we have more players resulting in more rotation. Otherwise there is no point to having a larger squad. However, that might result in less player satisfaction, the creation of dressing room cliques, loss of team cohesion and all sorts of other less predictable outcomes. Managers have to to take into account the complex personal inter-relationships in a squad. The more people you have, the more complex it becomes. There are very good reasons why many top managers often prefer to work with smaller squads.

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13 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

Increasing squad size may give you a better chance to win but you cannot say that a larger squad would have guaranteed winning things we didn't win.

This much is fair.  But certainly it was the squad size that made us so vulnerable in 15/16 and makes us potentially so vulnerable this year.

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3 hours ago, Ham said:

1. City were taken over in 2008 which coincides with your supposed decline. They started outspending us 5 minutes later. Soon after oligarchs appeared all over the place, particularly in the east.  

2. Of course Man U had to start hitting back. They're one of the 3 biggest clubs in the world.

They didn't necessarily need to outspend us over that period as they have a draw like Barca and Real. Players naturally want to join them. 

3. We had money but we always lost out on big players like Modric.  We were never in for Bale or Ronaldo. We have to accept our place in the pecking order. That's not necessarily mismanagement or a decline. 

4. None of the biggest clubs in the world win everything over a sustained period of time. Even Bayern had a mini decline and let Dortmund in for a while.

5. We have no God given right to win anything anymore as the playing field has been leveled and yet we've won two of the last three premier league titles. 

6. Fine margins and we could have had the legacy you think you deserve.

 

 

 

1. Sure, and they were a non-entity until 2010-11. Our decline had started before that. That they had Takshin as their owner meant little to us. Neither did they sign players we were interested in until a good few years after the take-over and once the arabs bought the club.

 2. Right. So you are now saying we weren't overtaken by clubs outspending us or by clubs with their own benefactor which was your initial claim. You now claim United didn't have to spend because players went there for free and managed to convince their clubs to let it happen? Makes sense. Not. 

3. We didn't lose out to Modric. We didn't get him because Spurs refused to sell him to us. They sold him for less one season later when he left for Real.

4. Strange example. We've never even reached the heights of a Bayern, Barca or Real even for a 5 year period. Not even the heights of Juve once they had been demoted and made their way back. We came close, but not quite to those levels. 

5. The playing field is level? Not really, there's six clubs or so that has more money than everyone else. We aren't one of them. Given the head start we had as a club to the "money era of football", I can't help but thinking that's a failure on our behalf. 

6. Get over yourself. I don't think I deserve anything. I'm not feeling comfortable pretending we are something we clearly aren't though. You seem happy to project your fantasies as truths. Whatever makes your boat float I suppose. 

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3 hours ago, Sciatika said:

There are very good reasons why many top managers often prefer to work with smaller squads.

Who are those top managers? 

We have had a few at our club, but interestingly enough when those same managers goes elsewhere they seem to favour squads with 3-4 proper options more (at least) then they had here. 

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Sciatika   

I think JM and AC prefer small or moderately sized squads. Too often we imagine players just get bought, come in and play. We know the likes of AC enjoys the coaching aspect. I think other coaches do too. We know that it takes a lot of time to improve players - coaches can only work with so many players at the same time (there are only 24 hours in a day). Too many players, too little depth. I suspect that, for some, even when they have large numbers of players in the squad, they have a kind of "squad-within-a-squad" which are the ones they actually work with on a day by day basis. I suspect the same happens with the young plauers in a squad. To me, I think imagining that we just need to buy some more players and it will solve all our problems is too simple.

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Not all our problems no, but it would solve the problem with a small squad. 

I also think you may want to have a look at the squads JM and AC has had at other clubs. 

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4 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Not all our problems no, but it would solve the problem with a small squad. 

I also think you may want to have a look at the squads JM and AC has had at other clubs. 

Or indeed that JM mk 1 had at Chelsea. 

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