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1 minute ago, Ham said:

Reading these posts you'd think we were rock bottom having just been thrashed by Arsenal.

Yes, you would. I'm amazed by the raw negativity expressed (repeatedly) by some on here. We're a long way ahead of numpty team that some will have us believe.

Strangely, all is not lost, and the sun will come up again tomorrow. As you were.

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bluehorn   
19 minutes ago, Ham said:

Reading these posts you'd think we were rock bottom having just been thrashed by Arsenal.

This place gets more negative by the day.

Why are there always responses like this when legitimate concerns are raised? An attempt to completely undermine/devalue an opinion by falsely implying we suggested/act as though we're "bottom of the league". 

We shouldn't have to caveat our concerns by declaring that we do in fact have a very good team, with some superb players.

Do you disagree that our 1 year only contact rule could lead to some high profile, fist team departures very soon? Fabregas, Pedro, Cahill, Luiz. Do you disagree that chasing Sandro/llorente/Stones all summer(s) and ending up with nothing is poor to say the least? Do you disagree that our squad is exceptionally small (of adults) and that for the third time after winning the league we have hamstrung our manager?

Feel free to disagree with me, I'm all for a debate. However, coming in and making blanket statement about our negativity offers nothing to a discussion on an "intelligent" forum.

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6 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

Training has nothing to do with the basics. These are professional players, they should have grasp those already. Unfortunately for us, we've obtained players over the years who aren't excessively well-rounded. They excel in aspects but then lack in other important areas. Our midfield and AM options are prime examples of this.

 

So you are saying it is the fault of the players that have won 2 of the last 3 PLs (Kante and Pedro also have  2 league titles, Baka 1).
I don't buy that.

Mind you I don't buy the idea that one draw against Arsenal proves anything much at all.  We didn't particularly outplay Spurs, but everyone celebrated the win as proof we were on course.  The real test for this squad will come as it tires, not now.  

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3 hours ago, A Blue Essien said:

That's a bit harsh. The only real holes I see are at LWB, where we have no other alternative, and another quality AM. Could do with an experienced striker as well, with the hope that Tammy comes back soon as a proper second choice. We're absolutely fine at CB and CM.

As mentioned above, we're not that far off. 

First of all we lack at least 4 senior players. LWB, AM and S is positions we need to fill. I'd argue we need five usable AMs. We have three... I'd also argue we need three usable strikers. We have one. That's four players right there plus a LWB... Perhaps we could get away with four if one of the AM/S can also play as an S/AM. 

Then we haven't even talked about the players that needs replacing (Bats) and a whole host of players in their last years (Luiz, Cahill, Pedro, Fab). 

We are looking at yet another window where we will have to spend big and buy 5-6 players that can slot right into the first team squad and be proper options. That's going to cost us another £200m+ to even have a squad that is competitive (if we want to compete with City, United, Barca, real, Juve, Bayern etc). If we are happy to be in the tier below and fight with Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham, Dortmund, Roma, Inter, Milan etc) then the requirements are not as high. 

But we can't claim to want to compete at the pinnacle of european football and continue with the current squad policy. It's mission impossible. 

 

1 hour ago, Flinkers said:

Next year we have 6 first team players entering their last contract year:

Fabregas, Cahill, Pedro, Luiz, Courtois and Musonda.

The first 4 are already over 30, so even if we retain them it will only be on a year to year basis. If we get rid, that's four new players already, plus filling the holes left over from this season. Also, if Willian wants another long contract with us, his agent needs to be on the phone already.

TBH we'll either be spending big again in the next two windows or trusting that the players out on loan (after another season of league football) are then capable of plugging gaps.

Exactly. 

Trusting the loan army players doesn't seem like a likely scenario though.

 

1 hour ago, bluehorn said:

Gosh that is potentially hugely problematic. It's time to abandon this bizarre 1 year only contracts rule we imposed on ourselves. Not a chance Luiz and Pedro, possibly Fabregas agree to that. Players want security and ££$$ guaranteed. With the amount of money in the game now, not to mention the inordinate amounts China can offer players, we can't afford to take a financial high ground. What would be the cost of replacing those players vs 1 years salary?

Quite. How will the 1 year deal to over 30's work here? Huge problem on the horizon... Offering these four a one year deal will mean we will have to offer huge wages for the players to accept the increased risk they take onboard or they'll be off somewhere else. 

Either case, it'll be expensive for us.

 

48 minutes ago, bluehorn said:

Why are there always responses like this when legitimate concerns are raised? An attempt to completely undermine/devalue an opinion by falsely implying we suggested/act as though we're "bottom of the league". 

We shouldn't have to caveat our concerns by declaring that we do in fact have a very good team, with some superb players.

Do you disagree that our 1 year only contact rule could lead to some high profile, fist team departures very soon? Fabregas, Pedro, Cahill, Luiz. Do you disagree that chasing Sandro/llorente/Stones all summer(s) and ending up with nothing is poor to say the least? Do you disagree that our squad is exceptionally small (of adults) and that for the third time after winning the league we have hamstrung our manager?

Feel free to disagree with me, I'm all for a debate. However, coming in and making blanket statement about our negativity offers nothing to a discussion on an "intelligent" forum.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to that if I were you.

There are some members who spends 90% of their posts ridiculing others and very rarely have any opinions themselves other than making sure to point out how everyone else is trying to make out like we are a bottom three side. Always the same posters who do this. Either they complain that people are too negative (despite describing in detail why one is worried, talk about that if you disagree ffs!) or that the posts others are posting isn't interesting to them (stop reading then ffs!). 

The irony is somehow lost on these two members though as their own posts are probably an example of posts that adds nothing of interest whatsoever.

Best ignored.

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2 hours ago, bluehorn said:

Gosh that is potentially hugely problematic. It's time to abandon this bizarre 1 year only contracts rule we imposed on ourselves. Not a chance Luiz and Pedro, possibly Fabregas agree to that. Players want security and ££$$ guaranteed. With the amount of money in the game now, not to mention the inordinate amounts China can offer players, we can't afford to take a financial high ground. What would be the cost of replacing those players vs 1 years salary?

The club does something well, somethings badly.  One of the things it has done really well is to go out into the market and buy bucketloads of top young players when prices look cheap (which like House prices doesn't mean they have fallen but just haven't raced away too far for a while).
We lead prices up in 2003/4/5.  We put in a lot of money into young talent around 2011-13 (and are still benefitting from that).  And we splashed out a fair bit on Willian and Hazard at prices that look very much out of line with modern pricing.  
 

So at a time when pricing have gone through the roof, I don't find it at all odd that Chelsea are not investing heavily.  Just consistent with their historically successful market oriented policies.

 

1 hour ago, bluehorn said:

Why are there always responses like this when legitimate concerns are raised? An attempt to completely undermine/devalue an opinion by falsely implying we suggested/act as though we're "bottom of the league". 

We shouldn't have to caveat our concerns by declaring that we do in fact have a very good team, with some superb players.

I agree.  Having a group of players like the ones that have won the PL twice now actually increases the responsibility of the club to the squad.

1 hour ago, bluehorn said:

1.  Do you disagree that our 1 year only contact rule could lead to some high profile, fist team departures very soon? Fabregas, Pedro, Cahill, Luiz.

2. Do you disagree that chasing Sandro/llorente/Stones all summer(s) and ending up with nothing is poor to say the least?

3.  Do you disagree that our squad is exceptionally small (of adults) and that for the third time after winning the league we have hamstrung our manager?

Feel free to disagree with me, I'm all for a debate. However, coming in and making blanket statement about our negativity offers nothing to a discussion on an "intelligent" forum.

Not addressed to me I know, but interesting questions.

1.  I think if you have a small squad by policy (it is not accidental) then you have to squeeze out players at 30 because most are just unable to start 50+ games in a season.  Stupid policy IMO, but this is an inevitable consequence.  The likes of Carrick and Ibrahimovic get by at man U as part of a massive squad.

2.  Unfair, we don't really know if we were chasing them, and perhaps we actually gave up earlier on.  Most press reporting means an agent is trying to get a deal done, not that clubs are.  (And see above on our quiet investment phase).

3.  Two.  I wouldn't count 10/11 when the squad remained pretty strong and we did buy Torres and Luiz mid-season.
(Incidentally the squad is still small if you count the kids - the development squad has been cleared out too to allow the 17 and 18 yos to play at U23.

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bluehorn   
40 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

2.  Unfair, we don't really know if we were chasing them, and perhaps we actually gave up earlier on.  Most press reporting means an agent is trying to get a deal done, not that clubs are.  (And see above on our quiet investment phase).

3.  Two.  I wouldn't count 10/11 when the squad remained pretty strong and we did buy Torres and Luiz mid-season.
(Incidentally the squad is still small if you count the kids - the development squad has been cleared out too to allow the 17 and 18 yos to play at U23.

2. You are right that a large majority of transfer rumours are manufactured for either coverage (Sky and newspapers) or for money (contract renewals) That said, in lack of a Transfer Ombudsman who reveals all, we have to make do with what we have. With Sandro we had months of speculation, quotes from their manager and chairman maintaining he's going nowhere (questions were at least being asked), that we only had 1 usable left back, and finally that clearly we wanted (and got) cover for Moses, which raises the question why wouldn't we do the same for Alonso? Especially given we have more cover at right back with Azpi being able to play there. So no, we don't know if we were legitimately interested. I'd argue however it looks better if we were! I'd rather that than the truth being we stupidly thought 1 left  back for 60 games this year would suffice.

3. That summer we sold/released: Cole, Ballack, Belletti, Carvalho and Deco to name a few. Only bringing in (for the 1st team squad) Benayoun and Ramires at a total cost of 23m. Losing those players AND not replacing them was a huge blow to our chances. We faffed around with our interest in Aguero, deeming him too expensive, only for us to panic and splurge 50m on a finished Torres. Both the summer and winter dealings were ill planned and executed poorly. 

Edited by bluehorn

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42 minutes ago, bluehorn said:

2. You are right that a large majority of transfer rumours are manufactured for either coverage (Sky and newspapers) or for money (contract renewals) That said, in lack of a Transfer Ombudsman who reveals all, we have to make do with what we have. With Sandro we had months of speculation, quotes from their manager and chairman maintaining he's going nowhere (questions were at least being asked), that we only had 1 usable left back, and finally that clearly we wanted (and got) cover for Moses, which raises the question why wouldn't we do the same for Alonso? Especially given we have more cover at right back with Azpi being able to play there. So no, we don't know if we were legitimately interested. I'd argue however it looks better if we were! I'd rather that than the truth being we stupidly thought 1 left  back for 60 games this year would suffice.

3. That summer we sold/released: Cole, Ballack, Belletti, Carvalho and Deco to name a few. Only bringing in (for the 1st team squad) Benayoun and Ramires at a total cost of 23m. Losing those players AND not replacing them was a huge blow to our chances. We faffed around with our interest in Aguero, deeming him too expensive, only for us to panic and splurge 50m on a finished Torres. Both the summer and winter dealings were ill planned and executed poorly. 

2.  The question though isn't whether we need 2 LWBs, but whether the club/manager wanted to stretch to an extra squad player.
I reckon that an alternate RWB was more needed than a LWB, and that a LWB would have meant sacrificing a CB.

"I'd rather that than the truth being we stupidly thought 1 left  back for 60 games this year would suffice."
Once you accept that a squad with 17 outfield players is enough, you have to accept any number of these absurdities.  3 AMs for example when 4 get played every game at most clubs.  1 LWB seems to me a relatively small issue.

If I count it right we have 17 outfield adults of which 5 are primarily CBs, 3 WBs, 4 CMs, 3 AMS and 2 CFs.

Given we normally expect to bring on 2 or 3 CMs AMS for CFs on each game, to have 8 of our outfield players as defenders seems too many*.  And then IMO the only player still with the club from last season who could reasonably be improved upon in Moses.

* One reason why I think Moses could end up as an AM sub later this season.

3.  Ancelotti's era is a big topic.  We did have a massive squad in 2010 and not a small squad the next year.  2 big buys were made in January.  For my money 2015/6 and probably 2017/18 are primarily failures due to a tiny squad despite great managers who had done really well improving their team in the previous 1 or 2 years.  2011/12 was a fair sized squad with IMO a poor manager who had improved the club by just 3 points and been knocked out in the first CL knockout round after 4 Semis and a final in the 6 previous RA years.

PL Points
83 CA 86 71
75 JM 82 87 50
50 AC 93

So I say the 08/09 team was bloody good given it has Scolari as manager for half the year, and that CA wasn't that great.  Others point to the goals we scored and no doubt the fun had by all.
 

 

1 hour ago, Sleeping Dave said:

I wouldn't pay too much attention to that if I were you.

There are some members who spends 90% of their posts ridiculing others and very rarely have any opinions themselves other than making sure to point out how everyone else is trying to make out like we are a bottom three side. Always the same posters who do this. Either they complain that people are too negative (despite describing in detail why one is worried, talk about that if you disagree ffs!) or that the posts others are posting isn't interesting to them (stop reading then ffs!). 

The irony is somehow lost on these two members though as their own posts are probably an example of posts that adds nothing of interest whatsoever.

Best ignored.

QFT.  The "your post is ridiculous but I'm not taking any alternative view myself" posters.

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Ham   
3 hours ago, bluehorn said:

Why are there always responses like this when legitimate concerns are raised? An attempt to completely undermine/devalue an opinion by falsely implying we suggested/act as though we're "bottom of the league". 

We shouldn't have to caveat our concerns by declaring that we do in fact have a very good team, with some superb players.

Do you disagree that our 1 year only contact rule could lead to some high profile, fist team departures very soon? Fabregas, Pedro, Cahill, Luiz. Do you disagree that chasing Sandro/llorente/Stones all summer(s) and ending up with nothing is poor to say the least? Do you disagree that our squad is exceptionally small (of adults) and that for the third time after winning the league we have hamstrung our manager?

Feel free to disagree with me, I'm all for a debate. However, coming in and making blanket statement about our negativity offers nothing to a discussion on an "intelligent" forum.

I'm referring to the general mood amongst most posters on here in relation to this game.  The points you're making have been made all summer long and we are where we are until January. Get over it.

We drew the game but if I hadn't seen the result I'd have assumed we'd got thrashed.

I have plenty of opinions on here and not just in the match day thread.

Moving forward, though, let me make it clear that I'll choose how I want to contribute to the forum, not you, Dave or Droy. The latter two clearly have more time on their hands than most.

Additionally I like to make my opinion known once and then leave it there unlike the usual suspects who post the same tired opinion over and over again for attention. 

However and having said that, on the over 30 contract issue I'm in agreement that it needs to change as it was always going to come back and bite us. In the modern day with players playing into their mid 30s it's counter productive to have it publicly known that you'll only get the security of a one year contract. 

Happy?

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1 minute ago, Ham said:

I'm referring to the general mood amongst most posters on here in relation to this game.  The points you're making have been made all summer long and we are where we are until January. Get over it.

This being a public forum and all, perhaps you are the one who needs to "get over it"? If enough people find the topic interesting it will be discussed. Alas, we see posts on this topic daily while we also have to endure your "get over it", "this isn't interesting to me", "people are stupid lalala" posts. 

See who the odd one out might be? If you don't like it, get over yourself and stop reading! It really isn't hard Ham.

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bluehorn   
9 minutes ago, Ham said:

We drew the game but if I hadn't seen the result I'd have assumed we'd got thrashed.

That's hyperbole and you know it. There weren't posts anything like "my word we were hammered" "that was a humiliating performance/result" "we aren't at their level" or anything even remotely indicating we had lost, never mind "hammered". What you will have seen were people worried before kick off, that Fabregas in a midfield two was a huge gamble (this proved correct). You'd have also seen people lamenting our lack of meaningful possession, creating of good chances, as well as criticism of individual performances. All absolutely warranted. 

I'm not telling you how to post. I will point out however that again you have come into this thread exaggerating legitimate concerns/opinions in an attempt to belittle the points made. 

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