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1 hour ago, Lump Of Celery said:

This almost reads like you're saying we miss Matic's presence in the middle ;-)

Just the opposite.  We miss the energy of 2 out of Hazard, Pedro and Willian.  And Fabregas.  In the end it is all the attempted challenges by players all over the pitch that make the ball pop loose to the guy not marking anyone.

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43 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

Just the opposite.  We miss the energy of 2 out of Hazard, Pedro and Willian.  And Fabregas.  In the end it is all the attempted challenges by players all over the pitch that make the ball pop loose to the guy not marking anyone.

Fabregas has already played more minutes in the league this season than the whole of last season so I don't see how you can argue we are missing his presence this season. If anything he was better as a sub last season getting 3x the assists in those same minutes, perhaps we are missing bringing him on late in games. One of Hazard Pedro Willian have been dropped to incorporate him into the side with a 3rd CM because the coach doesn't feel he has the energy you're claiming. And I wouldn't say that Baka attempts less challenges than those 3 AM's or lacks energy, his problem is giving the ball away.

If you had said we lack more of a goal threat with one of the 3 AM's dropped or that our WB's are finding it tougher with the oppo defence occupied by only two attackers then you would have had a point. Or you could have just said Matic was more effective to a balanced system in 343 than any of our current partners to Kante.

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2 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

Fabregas has already played more minutes in the league this season than the whole of last season so I don't see how you can argue we are missing his presence this season. If anything he was better as a sub last season getting 3x the assists in those same minutes, perhaps we are missing bringing him on late in games. One of Hazard Pedro Willian have been dropped to incorporate him into the side with a 3rd CM because the coach doesn't feel he has the energy you're claiming. And I wouldn't say that Baka attempts less challenges than those 3 AM's or lacks energy, his problem is giving the ball away.

If you had said we lack more of a goal threat with one of the 3 AM's dropped or that our WB's are finding it tougher with the oppo defence occupied by only two attackers then you would have had a point. Or you could have just said Matic was more effective to a balanced system in 343 than any of our current partners to Kante.

One of Fabregas/Willian/Pedro have been dropped to incorporate Baka in the side - lets get that right.  And yes - giving the ball away is a big negative.  After all probably 60% of the game is about establishing possession in the middle of the pitch.

But no - this is not about individuals.  This is about a collectively less energetic team based on tired players, specific selections by the manager and clear instructions to some if not all players that they are not expected to run about the pitch like they did last season.

The question that is interesting here is whether this is:

  • Sloppy football - lazy players and a manager who is not chasing them up
  • OR Smart football - a deliberate plan by a manager who knows his team's limitations and wants to avoid the 15/16 issues (where we tried to run the old jalopy flat out) and give us our best chance of a top  4 PL place.

Probably the latter.

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4 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

One of Fabregas/Willian/Pedro have been dropped to incorporate Baka in the side - lets get that right. 

We mostly only play 352 (which we never did last season) when Fabregas starts so it certainly seems he is the one being accommodated given that he was here and didn't start as often last season.

12 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

But no - this is not about individuals.  This is about a collectively less energetic team based on tired players, specific selections by the manager and clear instructions to some if not all players that they are not expected to run about the pitch like they did last season.

The question that is interesting here is whether this is:

  • Sloppy football - lazy players and a manager who is not chasing them up
  • OR Smart football - a deliberate plan by a manager who knows his team's limitations and wants to avoid the 15/16 issues (where we tried to run the old jalopy flat out) and give us our best chance of a top  4 PL place.

Probably the latter.

Agree with the tired players part. The rest of this is completely at odds to everything I have ever read about Conte, seen of him on the touchline or heard him say himself. Examples - apparent double training sessions, barking orders constantly suggests he has no problem chasing players up, repeating work work work. Being lazy or holding back in effort sound to me like the antithesis of Contes ethos.

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21 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

We mostly only play 352 (which we never did last season) when Fabregas starts so it certainly seems he is the one being accommodated given that he was here and didn't start as often last season.

Quite right - we never played 352 last season, but we did ask the front 3 to protect and press a lot more than we do this season.  There was a lot more work going on last season than under any formation we have used this season.

And yes Fabregas always played in 343, including most of the latter games as even Conte realised Matic offered so little.  So if we have switched it is to add a 3rd CM.  Bakayoko.

21 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

Agree with the tired players part. The rest of this is completely at odds to everything I have ever read about Conte, seen of him on the touchline or heard him say himself. Examples - apparent double training sessions, barking orders constantly suggests he has no problem chasing players up, repeating work work work. Being lazy or holding back in effort sound to me like the antithesis of Contes ethos.

Oh I agree it is not the reputation Conte has.  Though there have been comments about this season being easier on training than last.  Hazard it seems to me has easier duties at least.  And Morata doesn't play like Costa played.

But you tell me.  Are the players working as hard over 90 mins as last season?  And if not why?   (you can claim option 3, player revolt if you wish, but I doubt you'd convince many).

Edited by Droy was my hero

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Vinod   

Its time Conte changed things around. We need a compact formation and need to start from the back. It is amply clear that our WBs and Kante has been overworked. Willian leads our assists and he is not a nailed on starter. Azpi is second. We are clearly struggling to create good chances. 

I propose a shift back to 4-2-3-1

 

Courtois

Azpi - Christensen/ Luiz - Cahill - Rudiger

Kante - Drinkwater

Willian - Cesc - Hazard

Giroud/ Morata

 

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41 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

And yes Fabregas always played in 343, including most of the latter games as even Conte realised Matic offered so little.  So if we have switched it is to add a 3rd CM.  Bakayoko.

Taking our last 12 games from 1st of April as a sample - Matic started 10, Fabregas started 6 And two of those were at AM. Fabregas also didn't start the FA cup final. So no he didn't displace Matic in the starting line up at all, I remember Matic had an injury at some point previous to those games and Fabregas played but clearly he got his starting spot back end of the season.

41 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

But you tell me.  Are the players working as hard over 90 mins as last season?  And if not why? 

Because we've had a lot more games and a lot more injuries so far, not slacking just knackered. I'm certainly not a believer of option 3.

Will leave the thread to discuss the WBA game now.

Edited by Lump Of Celery

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xCELERYx   
42 minutes ago, Vinod said:

Its time Conte changed things around. We need a compact formation and need to start from the back. It is amply clear that our WBs and Kante has been overworked. Willian leads our assists and he is not a nailed on starter. Azpi is second. We are clearly struggling to create good chances. 

Willian's stats are super misleading without context. His four goals have come against Liverpool, Huddersfield, Brighton and Stoke. His assists have come against Huddersfield (2), Stoke (2), Burnley and Brighton. Only Liverpool and Burnley are top ten sides, two are in a relegation battle and the other is in the lower end of mid-table. That's not really anywhere good enough for a player of his experience and caliber - while Pedro isn't any better. 

That right there is a huge problem for us. We average 16.2 shots per game, not sure what percentage are on target, but we're not finishing the chances we do make either. It's hard to select AM's like Willian and Pedro consistently when they aren't really making a significant enough impact in the final third. Which is probably one reason Conte switched to a 352 for a period - as it allows better use of Fabregas who arguably offers more at times.

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kev61   
1 hour ago, xCELERYx said:

Willian's stats are super misleading without context. His four goals have come against Liverpool, Huddersfield, Brighton and Stoke. His assists have come against Huddersfield (2), Stoke (2), Burnley and Brighton. Only Liverpool and Burnley are top ten sides, two are in a relegation battle and the other is in the lower end of mid-table. That's not really anywhere good enough for a player of his experience and caliber - while Pedro isn't any better. 

That right there is a huge problem for us. We average 16.2 shots per game, not sure what percentage are on target, but we're not finishing the chances we do make either. It's hard to select AM's like Willian and Pedro consistently when they aren't really making a significant enough impact in the final third. Which is probably one reason Conte switched to a 352 for a period - as it allows better use of Fabregas who arguably offers more at times.

Statistics!!! Please I'm drowning in ****ing statistics!!.

 

 

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paulw66   
20 hours ago, GURJ SS said:

He had a very bad game, and when he got sent off we were always up against it. But our problems started way before Watford and Baka is just a small percentage of them.

Yes, agreed, but it was possibly the worst half hour I have seen from an international footballer. 

20 hours ago, BlueWill said:

Hmm 0-0 when he went off and the final score 1-4.

.

 

Yes, the team ran out of gas after playing with 10 for an hour. The tone of the game was set from the get go and quite frankly the only reason they weren't already ahead was because of poor finishing. 

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