• Current Donation Goals

Holymoly

SFL's Derby County

Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

1) Hoddle was a successful mould, Vialli was a successful mould as was Guillet . RDM won us the CL.  Different eras for first three but really important managers in our history.

Hoddle was neither very successful at Chelsea, nor were Chelsea a really big club then  And he had managed Swindon before in I guess Championship equiv.

Vialli and Gullitt were better examples, but I was still looking for for a Big club (Man U, RM, Chelsea post RA) not a middle club that did well.  RDM was not a great player just got lucky.

None of them are seen as great managers, just fortunate to be in the right place at the right time, before reality caught up with them.  In fact I could use Gullitt and Hoddle as examples of bad managers, especially post Chelsea.

1 hour ago, NoblyBobly said:

And when you say 9 out of 10 great players fail at running a PL team, would these teams be good PL teams or average/lousy ones? I don't think I'm going to let you have Zola or Keane for instance as examples of a top player failing at a top team. 

Which is why all your examples above don't count either.

24 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

2) go on then , it will make interesting reading if nothing else. I'll see if I can match it with big players failing at lesser teams.

Maradonna.  Souness.  Neville and Shearer were at pretty big teams at the time.  Ardiles.  David Platt.  Ray Clemence had a go at Spurs.  Wilkins.

There aren't that many examples because nowadays almost no big club appoints a manager without 6 years of coaching experience - RM included.
There are of course hundreds of ex-stars who failed at lower levels.  And a few big stars who spent 5 or 6 years at lower clubs or as part of the coaching teams at bigger clubs before getting an opportunity.  

 

 

19 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

Jodie Morris has spent 6 years coaching at this club (thats a guess but I bet I'm not far off)

And he has had his promotions in part because others have been promoted up the system ahead of him.  Neil Bath is ahead of him.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always felt Hoddle was the start of our success story arc. He put things in place and brought in a lot of good players to get the team flowing

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, r.bartlett said:

I always felt Hoddle was the start of our success story arc. He put things in place and brought in a lot of good players to get the team flowing

 

 

As Ken Bates said when he left for the England job "We were eleventh when he joined and eleventh when he left" but that was Ken being Ken I think .

What Hoddle did was to bring in some big name players and raise our profile as you say and it was a blast if I recall correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, r.bartlett said:

I always felt Hoddle was the start of our success story arc. He put things in place and brought in a lot of good players to get the team flowing

But one could equally just say that Colin Hutchinson and buying experienced foreign pros was the cause of that.

Bates used to say something like we were 11th when he came, 11th, 14th, and 11th when he left.  Hoddle did nothing for us.

In fact he could add we were top 6 for the remaining 7 pre-RA years.  In fact since the Prem went from 22 to 20 clubs during Hoddle's time, you could even argue we were a top half team when he arrived and a bottom half team when he left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Hoddle was neither very successful at Chelsea, nor were Chelsea a really big club then  And he had managed Swindon before in I guess Championship equiv.

Hoddle isn't a great example for either of our arguments because it's true we were not a great club back then . However he WAS a great player and he did put us on the map by playing great football and establishing us a competitive cup team (first final since 1971). He was the one that made signing like Zola and Guillit a reality. Great times for me and certainly not a failure as a manager for us. England poached him so they must have seen something half decent?

 

2 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Vialli and Gullitt were better examples,

They were very good examples in fact. Guilit gave us our first major trophy in 26 years and finished 6th. He was sacked the next season for rubbing Bates up the wrong way but we were 2nd in league at the time and in the quarters of  two cups.

Vialli won us the Cup Winners Cup and the League Cup. These two managers put us in a position that looked attractive to the likes of Roman A.

And by the way , you mention Newcastle as example of a top club where two great players have failed (Shearer and Guilit).  They have a big ground but they have never won a sausage in my lifetime so they are not a top club. They are an average or below average club with good support

2 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Maradonna.  Souness.  Neville and Shearer were at pretty big teams at the time.  Ardiles.  David Platt.  Ray Clemence had a go at Spurs.  Wilkins.

Maradonna failed with big and small clubs so no points scored there. Not sure Valencia is a major force as a club (borderline) , same for Newcastle.  But here's some of my examples of great players messing up at clubs the size of Derby and below:

Edgar Davids....Barnet

Paul Gasgoine (ok he was a drunk but he had his chance).....Kettering Town

Stoichkov (greatest Bulgarian player ever)..... failed everywhere.

Bryan Robson.......sacked from Sheffield United and achieved memorable hat trick of relegating Middlesbourgh , Bradford and West Brom.

Bobby Charlton ...... probably our greatest ever striker managed to get Preston North End relegated.

Bobby Moore....probably our greatest ever defender failed at Southend , Oxford and wait for it....Eastern AA

Tony Adams....Wycombe, Pompey, Gabala and Granada

John Barnes..... after he trashed Celtic he trashed Tranmere and was last heard of applying for the job as Rwandan national coach. Say no more.

2 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Which is why all your examples above don't count either.

Why don't Zola and Keane count? They are great players who couldn't manage manage their way out of a paper bag with an average club are they not? 

Zola...Birmingham, Watford, West Ham. Keane.....Sunderland and Ipswich.

 

A lot of this depends on how you define a top player and a top club. But Frank is a top player and Derby are not a top club. Top players sometimes cannot understand why a lesser player can't do what they use to do on a football pitch....I think it's a pattern

Zidane did it with Madrid and I reckon Frank and Jody were worth a shot here. Just my opinion.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Droy was my hero said:

But one could equally just say that Colin Hutchinson and buying experienced foreign pros was the cause of that.

Bates used to say something like we were 11th when he came, 11th, 14th, and 11th when he left.  Hoddle did nothing for us.

In fact he could add we were top 6 for the remaining 7 pre-RA years.  In fact since the Prem went from 22 to 20 clubs during Hoddle's time, you could even argue we were a top half team when he arrived and a bottom half team when he left.

Gullit said that having Hoddle as manager was what helped him decide to come to Chelsea rather than elsewhere. He in turn had the 'stardust' required to lure other top players when he became manager.

Hoddle convincing Gullit to join was the start of the revolution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

Gullit said that having Hoddle as manager was what helped him decide to come to Chelsea rather than elsewhere. He in turn had the 'stardust' required to lure other top players when he became manager.

Hoddle convincing Gullit to join was the start of the revolution.

Someone paid the wages, I don't think that was Hoddle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Droy was my hero said:

Someone paid the wages, I don't think that was Hoddle.

Gullit would have got the wages elsewhere... what convinced him to come to Chelsea was Hoddle, not the money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

Gullit would have got the wages elsewhere... what convinced him to come to Chelsea was Hoddle, not the money.

So which were the other clubs bidding for 30+ foreign stars in the mid-90s?
Funny Gullitt never said he only came for the money though.  Bates always reckoned he was very greedy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  I can't imagine Bates paying anyone a fortune in the mid nineties. More likely to see Daniel Levy buy a round of drinks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now