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6 hours ago, The_Ghost said:

I'm not Morata's biggest fan, but you seem to have taken this to a whole different level. Claiming his actual price would be closer to £30m is absolutely laughable though. Just have a look at the prices strikers are going for. 

£58m was a good deal all things considered. That he was bound to fail in Conte's defensive system wasn't perhaps so surprising. After all, he isn't Diego Maradona, Lionel Messi and Pele combined into one. 11 PL goals and 6 assists in 2,055 minutes. That's a goal or assist in every 120 mins or a goal every 186 mins. He started 24 PL games and scored 11 goals - that's 0,45 goals/start.  Far from disastrous. Incidentally, roughly the same average he has started this season with. 

I'll reserve my judgement to after this season. A full season under Sarri, a manager who wants to play football, and we should have a far better opportunity to judge Morata. Being the lone striker and the only blue shirt within a 35m radius for most of last season was hardly ideal. He had no one to play with apart from Hazard. The more I think about it, the less impressed I am of Conte. All things considered a pretty bad manager for us (despite the title win under very favourable circumstances).  

Many of your comments regarding Alvaro are completely alien to me. I've seen you say he can't hold up the ball very well, or that he lacks intelligence on the pitch. Both points being something I disagree with completely. As in, I'm taking the opposite view to you on that. If Alvaro could finish like other top strikers he'd be one of the very best. I stand by that. If he had better finishing he'd had 25 goals last season. That's what is missing. Technically he is superb. Intelligent and makes all the right runs and moves. It's the finishing with his feet that he lacks. 

Finishing isn't exactly something that is a fixed quality. It depends on so many variables, many of them mental. 

Well I'm afraid I would call his overall contribution to last season very close to disastrous. You point to 11 prem goals as is it's a positive. I have had this argument several times so apologies if you've already heard it. He had a purple patch at the start of the season where he scored 7 or 8 goals in a fairly short space of time. And I'm told that's exactly what has happened to him all his career so far.... a purple patch then nothing. He just cannot hold form. And 11 goals might be ok if he was feeding of scraps , but the guilt edge chances he blew (especially one on ones with a keeper) were shameful. And I'm counting down the days until he starts lamenting about missing Madrid again. I'm sick to fackin death of hearing our players go on about that bloody town. 

I wish him well this season, I really do, but I'm team Giroud all the way. 

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1 hour ago, NoblyBobly said:

Well I'm afraid I would call his overall contribution to last season very close to disastrous. You point to 11 prem goals as is it's a positive. I have had this argument several times so apologies if you've already heard it. He had a purple patch at the start of the season where he scored 7 or 8 goals in a fairly short space of time. And I'm told that's exactly what has happened to him all his career so far.... a purple patch then nothing. He just cannot hold form. And 11 goals might be ok if he was feeding of scraps , but the guilt edge chances he blew (especially one on ones with a keeper) were shameful. And I'm counting down the days until he starts lamenting about missing Madrid again. I'm sick to fackin death of hearing our players go on about that bloody town. 

I wish him well this season, I really do, but I'm team Giroud all the way. 

That's a fair critisism. 

I'm not argiung against that he hasn't consistently delivered the goods. If he had, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place. 

I just think that coming to a new league, in a new country at 24 and being expected to fulfil a role you have never performed before isn't easy. 0.45 goals every start isn't bad - objectively that's actually good. Last season that's on par with Lukaku (0,48), Firmino (0,47) and Lacazette (0,54). 

I think he needs to have a 20-goal PL season and a few goals more in cups etc. He needs it to prove to himself he can take that step. 

He's a text book example of a talent who played at big clubs too soon. Not being first choice at Juve or Real isn't a disaster. But he'd always need time to re-adjust to being the main man. Time will tell if he has the mental strength. 

Hopefully Sarri can spur him on and that playing in a high-pressing team with lots of attacking intent will be a far better environment for a striker as opposed trying to perform miracles playing 2-3 vs. a compact defense of 5-8 players. I cannot stress enough how difficult Conte made it for all our attacking players. 

Hazard 12 PL goals. Morata 11 PL goals. Alonso 7 PL goals. Willian 6 PL goals. Pedro 4 PL goals. That was our top 5. Says it all. 

City had;

21 goals. 18 goals. 13 goals. 10 goals. 9 goals. That was their top 5. Agüero, Sterling, Jesus, Sané, Silva. The difference is staggering. It's even worse when looking at top 10. Pedro would just about make their top 10... 

It's the style of play. Playing 8 defensive players isn't great for strikers. Playing 6 attacking players plus two attacking FBs is a whole different story. 

I hope to be proven wrong (I wrote him off during the summer), and perhaps it's just the "renewed-faith-syndrome" others have already mentioned. Maybe he'll just do exactly what he always did. Start well and then tail off. But I think there was enough shown from him in patches last season that showed us what he can be.

Consistency will be key. Not being laid off with injuries another. 

 

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kev61   
6 hours ago, NoblyBobly said:

Well I'm afraid I would call his overall contribution to last season very close to disastrous. You point to 11 prem goals as is it's a positive. I have had this argument several times so apologies if you've already heard it. He had a purple patch at the start of the season where he scored 7 or 8 goals in a fairly short space of time. And I'm told that's exactly what has happened to him all his career so far.... a purple patch then nothing. He just cannot hold form. And 11 goals might be ok if he was feeding of scraps , but the guilt edge chances he blew (especially one on ones with a keeper) were shameful. And I'm counting down the days until he starts lamenting about missing Madrid again. I'm sick to fackin death of hearing our players go on about that bloody town. 

I wish him well this season, I really do, but I'm team Giroud all the way. 

Yes a good adjudication Nobly.Morata will never be a top class striker he trips over his own feet at times, in fairness so did Costa but Costa can bury the ball in the net that mere mortals can't.Morata should be sold asap he is a waste of money imo.

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paulw66   
8 hours ago, kev61 said:

Yes a good adjudication Nobly.Morata will never be a top class striker he trips over his own feet at times, in fairness so did Costa but Costa can bury the ball in the net that mere mortals can't.Morata should be sold asap he is a waste of money imo.

I think Morata has to be given a 2nd season to form a fair judgement.

Drogba scored 10 league goals in season 1 and 12 in season 2. I am fairly certain that had he been sold after either one of these seasons, nobody would have been that bothered. 

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On 8/21/2018 at 3:17 PM, thevelourfog said:

I half-agree with you; one of my big concerns from mid-season last year was that we'd get rid of Conte and be left with a striker I couldn't see many other managers wanting.

From my perspective though, the trouble is that Morata is here and going nowhere, at least not until July next season and in all likelihood not even then. Either we try our best to make him useful (I.e. try to the furthest extent we can to play him into form, knowing that it may or may not work) or we give up on him now and have both a nothing on our books and a weak position to sell from.

There is a good footballer in there. Regardless of what any of us think, I can't see practically that we have any option but to try and coax that footballer out again. I think Giroud, for his other weaknesses, can cope with being out of the starting XI for a while and then still deliver what his strengths allow weeks or months down the line. I don't think Morata can.

Edit: and Bats, for me, just isn't good enough for Chelsea based on what I've seen him do at Chelsea, but I accept others rate him differently. 

Well the first point is a fact, I'll give you that....and it is troubling. To the second highlighted point I would say...  "how many chances and seasons do we give him as our first choice CF?" or "What if we get a small improvement this season and he gets say, 15 goals, whereas are rival CFs such as Kane, Salah and Aguero  are still banging in double that amount?" . It's just not going to happen with this chap is it ?  We should have loaned him if we couldn't sell him (get whoever organised the Bakayoko loan on the case). I can honestly see more sense in working with Batshuai because if that turd was polished up it could be quite something. 

I do agree that we can and have jumped to conclusions with players far too quickly in the past instead of letting them develop naturally into our system....I'd quite like a front three of Hazard, Salah and DeBryne....and  take a look at highlights of DeBryne first Chelsea game against Hull. He was 17 and already had style swagger and confidence. He got MOTM yet no Jackpot alarm bells started ringing in anyone's ears! To me that is inexcusable. However Morata is 25 and has had periods at Madrid and Juve and not pulled up any trees.. He's now had a full season at Chelsea and a full preseason which looked very very poor. How long do we to try and excavate his potential and at what cost to this club? 

Give the job to Giroud. He's not the answer to all our prayers but at least you know what you get. Top four is vital this season and I think we can do it with him.

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34 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

Well the first point is a fact, I'll give you that....and it is troubling. To the second highlighted point I would say...  "how many chances and seasons do we give him as our first choice CF?" or "What if we get a small improvement this season and he gets say, 15 goals, whereas are rival CFs such as Kane, Salah and Aguero  are still banging in double that amount?" . It's just not going to happen with this chap is it ?  We should have loaned him if we couldn't sell him (get whoever organised the Bakayoko loan on the case). I can honestly see more sense in working with Batshuai because if that turd was polished up it could be quite something. 

I do agree that we can and have jumped to conclusions with players far too quickly in the past instead of letting them develop naturally into our system....I'd quite like a front three of Hazard, Salah and DeBryne....and  take a look at highlights of DeBryne first Chelsea game against Hull. He was 17 and already had style swagger and confidence. He got MOTM yet no Jackpot alarm bells started ringing in anyone's ears! To me that is inexcusable. However Morata is 25 and has had periods at Madrid and Juve and not pulled up any trees.. He's now had a full season at Chelsea and a full preseason which looked very very poor. How long do we to try and excavate his potential and at what cost to this club? 

Give the job to Giroud. He's not the answer to all our prayers but at least you know what you get. Top four is vital this season and I think we can do it with him.

He was great against Hull but that was it De Bruynne and Salah didn't have one standout performance whilst here. I don't go for all this retrospective what if we had kept....looking at what little patience people have with our current players it's no surprise we let a few gems go. Take Pedro for example, plenty wanted him gone in the summer, not good enough they cried and he has two goals in two games.

 

 

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paulw66   
2 hours ago, NoblyBobly said:

 

I do agree that we can and have jumped to conclusions with players far too quickly in the past instead of letting them develop naturally into our system....I'd quite like a front three of Hazard, Salah and DeBryne....and  take a look at highlights of DeBryne first Chelsea game against Hull. He was 17 and already had style swagger and confidence. He got MOTM yet no Jackpot alarm bells started ringing in anyone's ears! 

I don't disagree that he played well against Hull, and he only got one more league start before he was shipped out, which was criminal. That said, he was 22, not 17

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1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

I don't disagree that he played well against Hull, and he only got one more league start before he was shipped out, which was criminal. That said, he was 22, not 17

Sorry, yes I always get him mixed up with Lukaku who at about 18 always looked 5 years older than he was and DeBryne who always looked about 5 years younger. He must be 27/28 now and still looks about 12.  I saw a video recently of that game picking out his good bits and he looked incredible. When you look at the multiple chances some bad players get, surely DeBryne must have been worth a few games....I mean 2 league starts and one of those as MOTM? Salah on the other hand never looked close to where he is now (although we played him more as a winger). Sometimes (and not often) an ugly duckling can turn into a swan...Drogba was a good example. But do you really see Morata as an ugly duckling waiting to burst into a Drogba like swan? Even if he has the talent, I just don't think he's got the balls.   

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3 hours ago, fillerywhereru said:

He was great against Hull but that was it De Bruynne and Salah didn't have one standout performance whilst here. I don't go for all this retrospective what if we had kept....looking at what little patience people have with our current players it's no surprise we let a few gems go. Take Pedro for example, plenty wanted him gone in the summer, not good enough they cried and he has two goals in two games.

 

 

Hindsight is easy I agree, but there were many questioning Morata's pedigree when he arrived here.

If you were Sarri what would be your plan with Morata? Give him until Christmas as our main striker regardless of his form?  Play him the whole season? ....and if there's no change? ....give him another season? There must be some point when you'd say enough is enough?  Likewise if he hits a sustained spell of form I'll happily eat humble pie...he's got an early goal, it should do his confidence good, average team coming up, let's see what if he can muster. 

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paulw66   
14 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

Sorry, yes I always get him mixed up with Lukaku who at about 18 always looked 5 years older than he was and DeBryne who always looked about 5 years younger. He must be 27/28 now and still looks about 12.  I saw a video recently of that game picking out his good bits and he looked incredible. When you look at the multiple chances some bad players get, surely DeBryne must have been worth a few games....I mean 2 league starts and one of those as MOTM? Salah on the other hand never looked close to where he is now (although we played him more as a winger). Sometimes (and not often) an ugly duckling can turn into a swan...Drogba was a good example. But do you really see Morata as an ugly duckling waiting to burst into a Drogba like swan? Even if he has the talent, I just don't think he's got the balls.   

A lot of the criticism thrown at Drogba in year 1 and 2 are the same as the ones being thrown at Morata - namely, goes down too easily, and not good enough in front of goal. Who knows what will happen with Morata, but the similarities so far plentiful 

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