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Kezza

Kante and Jorginho - The Conundrum

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Sciatika   

Like all things related to playing passes, it is as much the responsibility of the passer and the recipient of the pass to see an utilise the space. Maybe Jorginho is not passing forward because players aren't moving into spaces.

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33 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

Like all things related to playing passes, it is as much the responsibility of the passer and the recipient of the pass to see an utilise the space. Maybe Jorginho is not passing forward because players aren't moving into spaces.

Yes it is chicken and egg.  Without Fabregas or Luiz though, I wonder why anyone bothers to run at all.  Why run for Jorginho?

And Jorginho has only ever had one attacking pass - the vertical - on the ground to feet of a forward who becomes a static player but immediately flicks it on to someone mobile.
If Hazard plays CF that ball takes Hazard out of the attack and brings in someone else.  If we set up as yesterday, Hazard as False 9 (ie much deeper than usual) and widemen really out wide (so not coming in close enough for the flick ons) it essentially eliminates the whole "vertical" tactic.  It's a shorter pass to Hazard, out best man becomes static, and it's Kante or Barkley getting the flicks on our h/w line, not Willian or Pedro getting them close to their box.

Jorginho has his benefits, but accurate lofted passes to distant moving targets, or indeed lifting his head up high enough to spot anyone 20 yards away but the CF, are not part of his skillset.

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Rob B   
6 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Jorginho has his benefits, but accurate lofted passes to distant moving targets, or indeed lifting his head up high enough to spot anyone 20 yards away but the CF, are not part of his skillset.

Bang on this. It’s actually quite shocking how bad his is at these though.

All of that said, I still our bigger problem is the LCM role. I don’t think there’s many players in world football who will oust Kante or Jorginho from their spots, but I can’t help but feel neither Kovacic or Barkley offer anywhere near enough going forward for that midfield to be fully effective 

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Yeah, I'd agree with that. From what I saw of Sarri's Napoli over the last couple of years, the difference between Kovacic/Barkley to Hamsik is much greater than Jorginho to Jorginho or Kanté to Allan. 

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xCELERYx   
4 hours ago, Rob B said:

Bang on this. It’s actually quite shocking how bad his is at these though.

All of that said, I still our bigger problem is the LCM role. I don’t think there’s many players in world football who will oust Kante or Jorginho from their spots, but I can’t help but feel neither Kovacic or Barkley offer anywhere near enough going forward for that midfield to be fully effective 

Sarri needs to swap the roles of Kante and Kovacic/Barkley around. Give Kovacic and Barkley the more attacking freedom to push forward like Kante is currently assigned. They're better equipped to support the attack with their better skills on the ball. Then allow Kante to play that more conservative role that has more of a focus on defensively supporting Jorginho and Alonso but pushing up when needed in support. That would give us a bit more defensive protection in midfield and left back and allow Kante to still help out doing what he does best. When he's push so far up the pitch he can often be bypassed if the opposition move the ball quickly. I'd rather opposition needing to get past Jorginho and Kante than a Jorginho and Kovacic/Barkley partnership.

The other thing I've noticed is that Kovacic and Barkley look like they're playing within themselves more than usual. Barkley isn't getting himself into the same attacking positions as he did while with Everton, with his play looking more focused around not making mistakes. Kovacic I've mentioned before needs to play further forward like he did during his Inter Milan days. He can break lines, he's strong on the ball, has good dribbling skills for a midfielder and is more equipped technically with the ball to find a pass in the final third.

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Kezza   

Kante is already playing the more defensive role. He's playing the Allan role as it is in Napoli. He's not playing the Hamsik role at all.

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GURJ SS   
On 1/6/2019 at 8:57 AM, The_Ghost said:

Kovacic - 992 mins 0 goals and 2 assists

Kante - 1876 mins 3 goals and 2 assists

Jorginho - 1733 1 goal and 0 assists

Barkley - 695 mins 3 goals and 3 assists

Loftus-Cheek - 327 mins 3 goals

Fabregas - 127 mins 0 goals and 0 assists

 

I think we may have solved the comcundrum of us not scoring enough. 

Is there a stat and heatwave of who spends longer in goal scoring positions? I think you'd find that the central mid (Jorge) sits far too deep to get goals and assist (the highest Busquets has had is like 5 assist in a season), then the LCM (Kova) drops back to allow the LW into the space in front of him and cover for Alonso (note: no one in the team covers for Alonso like Kova does). Then comes the RCM (Kante) who has Dave sitting behind him and the RW staying out more wide and also Jorge behind him, it's the important box to box position and they find themselves in far more advanced positions than the other two midfielders.

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9 minutes ago, GURJ SS said:

Is there a stat and heatwave of who spends longer in goal scoring positions? I think you'd find that the central mid (Jorge) sits far too deep to get goals and assist (the highest Busquets has had is like 5 assist in a season), then the LCM (Kova) drops back to allow the LW into the space in front of him and cover for Alonso (note: no one in the team covers for Alonso like Kova does). Then comes the RCM (Kante) who has Dave sitting behind him and the RW staying out more wide and also Jorge behind him, it's the important box to box position and they find themselves in far more advanced positions than the other two midfielders.

Well Luiz does - and Azpi tucks right in to make it 3 at the back very often.  Possibly less so when Kovacic is playing.

The reason we are not scoring that often (albeit more often than last year) is very obvious, the CFs are out of form and no one else is joining them in the box (just Alonso mostly and sometimes Kante).
Of course the reason we are conceding so rarely (much less than last year) is precisely the same.
4th, on course for 10 more points, 7 more scored, 9 fewer conceded, we are doing much better than I expected. 
And we are entering the really tough January period of multiple games (the period we collapsed last year) with probably the biggest squad in the PL, instead of the smallest.

Very good for work in progress.  We'll sort more out as the season goes on.  The City win was a massive boost for Sarri.

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