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Holymoly   

Glad Manure pulled it out of the bag so that their fixture list remains crowded. All the way to the final then lose please. We on the other hand all the way to the final and win, thank you.

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9 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

Eh?  We've won big titles in 4 of those seasons.  We've been CL semi-finalists in 2 others.  I'm pretty sure we planned for that in some of the other seasons.  just because a season goes wrong, does not mean the club was not aiming high - in fact mostly seasons go wrong precisely because the planning is too ambitious.

Well, obviously- the Mourinho/Hiddink season is the best example. I picked the number of seasons off the cuff and perhaps they don't add up, but the point IMO stands that we have had a decent number of seasons during which building to win has been the bigger 'target' as it were than winning. I'd say what differentiates us from 'tinpot clubs' as paulw66 puts it is that we're always targetting for the winning to be in the immediate future rather than the more nebulous building of, let's say Spurs for example.

I don't think we do go into every season thinking about and aiming to win every trophy we're competing in, and I don't think that is necessarily a problem so long as we do go into enough seasons thinking (and more importantly, and again what differentiates us from other clubs, actually doing) that we will win trophies.

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BlueFizz   
3 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

I don't think we do go into every season thinking about and aiming to win every trophy we're competing in, and I don't think that is necessarily a problem so long as we do go into enough seasons thinking (and more importantly, and again what differentiates us from other clubs, actually doing) that we will win trophies.

I've read several attributed interviews over several years with Bruce Buck - generally our mouthpiece. He consistently says we aim to stay involved in all competitions until late in the season - by which I've assumed he means: we don't cherry pick in advance and the longer you stay there or there abouts, the more chance you have of ending up with a trophy.

I do think our prodigious success over the past 10-15 years is often swept aside on this forum - almost as if it gets in the way of the argument that we're falling to pieces.

I agree with you - we are a trophy winning machine. The likes of Spurs and Liverpool are (to date) in a state of perpetual building, but never quite winning.

I like winning better.

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paulw66   
3 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

. I'd say what differentiates us from 'tinpot clubs' as paulw66 puts it is that we're always targetting for the winning to be in the immediate future rather than the more nebulous building of, let's say Spurs for example.

 

I wasn't being 100% serious with my terminology, but I do think we get zero credit in the media for trying to win every competition we are in, rather than some of the sides who put out joke sides in the cups. 

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1 minute ago, BlueFizz said:

I agree with you - we are a trophy winning machine. The likes of Spurs and Liverpool are (to date) in a state of perpetual building, but never quite winning.

I like winning better.

An important point.  One has to add that attempting to win stuff usually means stretching your performances to the point where it may go wrong, while not trying to win stuff means you can always stay within that level, rotate players more often, play a lower risk game.
Trying to win stuff necessarily involves more apparent failures.  Not trying to win covers up those failures.

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BlueFizz   
1 minute ago, Droy was my hero said:

An important point.  One has to add that attempting to win stuff usually means stretching your performances to the point where it may go wrong, while not trying to win stuff means you can always stay within that level, rotate players more often, play a lower risk game.
Trying to win stuff necessarily involves more apparent failures.  Not trying to win covers up those failures.

Well said on all points.

 

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36 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

I wasn't being 100% serious with my terminology, but I do think we get zero credit in the media for trying to win every competition we are in, rather than some of the sides who put out joke sides in the cups. 

We barely got any credit for winning the Champions League or doing the double so ...that's the media for you I suppose.

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1 hour ago, Droy was my hero said:

An important point.  One has to add that attempting to win stuff usually means stretching your performances to the point where it may go wrong, while not trying to win stuff means you can always stay within that level, rotate players more often, play a lower risk game.
Trying to win stuff necessarily involves more apparent failures.  Not trying to win covers up those failures.

This is a great point well made, sir.

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chara   
2 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

An important point.  One has to add that attempting to win stuff usually means stretching your performances to the point where it may go wrong, while not trying to win stuff means you can always stay within that level, rotate players more often, play a lower risk game.
Trying to win stuff necessarily involves more apparent failures.  Not trying to win covers up those failures.

Well put Droy...and..for those of you who are drawn into tussles with Droy...when he is not winding you up he writes a lot of sense..just get past the digs!!!

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Sciatika   
3 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

An important point.  One has to add that attempting to win stuff usually means stretching your performances to the point where it may go wrong, while not trying to win stuff means you can always stay within that level, rotate players more often, play a lower risk game.
Trying to win stuff necessarily involves more apparent failures.  Not trying to win covers up those failures.

True, but there is a counterargument that if you do not try to win stuff, you won't win anything. Winning mentality is important. What you need is a squad big enough to be able to rotate with no loss of ability and the desire to win everything so that players are competing to be at their best. Players work best when they are competing to be in the team that brings home the trophies. But it is high risk because, as you say, players are on the edge of what is possible. I am reminded that some of our fittest athletes are likely to break down with injury because they push the bounds of what the human form can endure.

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