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8 hours ago, Blue Rod said:

1. If I hadn't watched Jorginho play, I would have taken this analysis seriously.

2. But you can always find a clip in which Winston Bogarde was indispensable to Chelsea.

3. Another point is that for every positive clip there are several critical and equally informative ones which we can and should of course ignore.

4. One can write pages about the importance of the hand in w@@k@ng, but it would not mean that w@@k@ng is the best way to obtain pleasure.

5. This clip and the analysis was at the start of the season when sarriball was the craze that was going to revolutionise English football. That now sounds like it was 100 years ago. 

Please present us with a clip that shows us or argues that Winston Bogarde was indispensable to Chelsea. And please do us all the great respect of actually presenting this clip, rather than wilfully misunderstanding what I'm asking and replying to that misunderstanding. We will all pay attention.

There's almost a point to what you're saying in that these videos tend to be made by people with a strong view either way rather than a more dispassionate analyst (presumably they have better things to do with their lives), so often they don't offer a fuller appraisal of strengths and limitations. Where it falls down for you is that whoever made the video doesn't fall over themselves to say how brilliant Jorginho is, and paulw66 didn't post it for that reason either. It was made and then shared here to show what Jorginho does, what a Jorginho player is and in response to a question (that did not really deserve and was lucky to get) about just that. And it does that very, very well.

Funny that the response from Jorginho's and Sarri's biggest critics here hasn't been 'I disagree that is what Jorginho does, I think he does XYZ instead', it's been 'I don't care, I was right all along, Jorginho is sh*te'. 

 

 

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paulw66   
1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

Please present us with a clip that shows us or argues that Winston Bogarde was indispensable to Chelsea. And please do us all the great respect of actually presenting this clip, rather than wilfully misunderstanding what I'm asking and replying to that misunderstanding. We will all pay attention.

There's almost a point to what you're saying in that these videos tend to be made by people with a strong view either way rather than a more dispassionate analyst (presumably they have better things to do with their lives), so often they don't offer a fuller appraisal of strengths and limitations. Where it falls down for you is that whoever made the video doesn't fall over themselves to say how brilliant Jorginho is, and paulw66 didn't post it for that reason either. It was made and then shared here to show what Jorginho does, what a Jorginho player is and in response to a question (that did not really deserve and was lucky to get) about just that. And it does that very, very well.

Funny that the response from Jorginho's and Sarri's biggest critics here hasn't been 'I disagree that is what Jorginho does, I think he does XYZ instead', it's been 'I don't care, I was right all along, Jorginho is sh*te'. 

 

 

Thank you. Just saved me the bother! 

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13 hours ago, kev61 said:

The elephant in the room is Sarri  himself has ditched his own system!

Hang on. He has been pilloried on here for months, for sticking to his system, not being willing to adapt and for us all "suffering" the learning curve that the players have been going through.

He said early on, that it was going to take at least 6 months for it to begin to work, even whilst we were winning all those early games.

I saw it working well against Brighton. I have not seen the West Ham game yet, but in terms of all of the feedback, this was also a very good performance.

Given that he is still playing 433 with Jorginho in his usual position, Kante in his usual position, 2 AMs playing very wide with a lump in the middle and the back 4 playing out religiously from deep, how has he "abandoned" his system?

Are you sure we are not just slowly getting better at it? I dont doubt for a second that we will have more bad days ahead, likely Sunday for one and we still have to get round the issue where Jorginho and/or Luiz is man-marked by the better teams, but it feels like we are gradually improving to me.

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59 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

Hang on. He has been pilloried on here for months, for sticking to his system, not being willing to adapt and for us all "suffering" the learning curve that the players have been going through.

He said early on, that it was going to take at least 6 months for it to begin to work, even whilst we were winning all those early games.

I saw it working well against Brighton. I have not seen the West Ham game yet, but in terms of all of the feedback, this was also a very good performance.

Given that he is still playing 433 with Jorginho in his usual position, Kante in his usual position, 2 AMs playing very wide with a lump in the middle and the back 4 playing out religiously from deep, how has he "abandoned" his system?

Are you sure we are not just slowly getting better at it? I dont doubt for a second that we will have more bad days ahead, likely Sunday for one and we still have to get round the issue where Jorginho and/or Luiz is man-marked by the better teams, but it feels like we are gradually improving to me.

He hasn't abandoned the system at all, it's just two posters who have slowly been proved more and more wrong as the season progresses trying to find anything to have a moan about. 

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paulw66   
42 minutes ago, Martin1905 said:

He hasn't abandoned the system at all, it's just two posters who have slowly been proved more and more wrong as the season progresses trying to find anything to have a moan about. 

Hilarious, right? Either of the following arguments would make some sort of sense:

1. He has abandoned nothing, changed nothing and the team are learning and improving. You could rightly maintain that has been stubborn (not necessarily a bad thing)

2. He has changed the system to good effect, shown tactical flexibility and therefore he isn't stubborn

What makes no sense is the hybrid argument of the two, where apparently he is a stubborn, inflexbile coach, picking the same players (one in particular) but who has at the same time changed the system and abandonned Sarri ball. 

I am curious as to what anyone thinks has been abandoned. Still playing out from the back, still playing a back 4, largely the same personnel, Jorginho as the regista, with Kante on the right, then one of RLC/Barkley/Kovacic on the left, then a front 3 of Hazard, Higuain, Willian/Pedro/CHO

RLC and CHO have forced themselves up the pecking order, but the system is identical and in the big games (Sunday will show) the players will remain largely the same. 

I realise I have repeated a lot of what McCreadie wrote, but I agree with it! 

Edited by paulw66

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1 hour ago, Martin1905 said:

He hasn't abandoned the system at all, it's just two posters who have slowly been proved more and more wrong as the season progresses trying to find anything to have a moan about. 

Agreed.

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Sea foot   

So far page 32 of this thread has been as sensible as it gets. Agree wholeheartedly.

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kev61   
On 11/04/2019 at 2:09 PM, Martin1905 said:

He hasn't abandoned the system at all, it's just two posters who have slowly been proved more and more wrong as the season progresses trying to find anything to have a moan about. 

 "The only thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience"(Atticus Finch).

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kev61   
On 11/04/2019 at 2:09 PM, Martin1905 said:

it's just two posters who have slowly been proved more and more wrong as the season progresses trying to find anything to have a moan about. 

Martin,I can assure you I see things as they are without any influence can you say the same? - if I wanted I could pidgeon hole you if needed.

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5 hours ago, kev61 said:

Martin,I can assure you I see things as they are without any influence can you say the same?

Not sure I follow you Kev. Is it because I don't hold the same opinion as the vast majority that I am the one being influenced?

Seems a bit backwards to me.

5 hours ago, kev61 said:

- if I wanted I could pidgeon hole you if needed.

Go for it. Please.

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