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14 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

Barkley and Kovacic got 3 goals between them so if we dropped one of them and could get Alonso scoring 6-7 again, as Conte Kante was suggesting as a plus from playing a back 5, we've doubled our output from one position while also playing two AM's and a ST. Those are the balances that have to be weighed up, for example a diamond formation might not really allow for getting more goalscorers on the pitch as we would have to drop the wingers. Saying we should play 15 players is just being silly.

So? Neither of them are likely to be automatic starters in either a 4231 or a 433. When the season is in full swing, I expect the following to be our starting XI:

Kepa

Azpilicueta - Luiz - Rüdiger - Emerson/Alonso 

Kanté - Jorginho/Kovacic 

Pedro/CHO - Loftus-Cheek/Barkley - Willian/Pulisic 

Giroud

Which if the four bolded positions do you think we should sacrifice in order to be able to add Christensen or Zouma to the starting XI? And how will that help solve our goalscoring problems? Also, most of the goals from Alonso comes from set pieces. 

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4 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

So? Neither of them are likely to be automatic starters in either a 4231 or a 433. 

Our only fit options for the first half of the season are going to be Barkley, Kovacic & Mount in the 8 or 10 positions respectively in each formation. One of them is going to have to start in those formations, probably 2 of them while Kante is out. The alternatives being goal scoring maestro's Bakayoko and Drinkwater.

9 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

 Also, most of the goals from Alonso comes from set pieces. 

3 out of 17 goals scored for Chelsea in the PL and Europe. Barkley has 1 in 5 so a slightly higher proportion. Kovacic & Mount don't have a goal in either competition, Drinkwater and Baka have 4 goals between them none of which were free kicks.

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9 hours ago, xCELERYx said:

His strengths lie up field and having that extra CB behind him in a 3ATB, provides that cover when he doesn't have the leg speed to get back. 

So play Alonso at LW or 2nd striker, and with 4 at the back he doesn't need to get back.

36 minutes ago, Conte Kante said:

Exactly. The other problem is even if we go for a 442/4231/4131 who is getting goals anyway?

True - good argument for 2CBs flanked by 2 WBs like Spurs, Liverpool or City.  Moses and Kenedy you are in.

27 minutes ago, The_Ghost said:

Which if the four bolded positions do you think we should sacrifice in order to be able to add Christensen or Zouma to the starting XI? And how will that help solve our goalscoring problems? Also, most of the goals from Alonso comes from set pieces. 

Several good points (add Zappa, not Christensen, and Zouma is too clumsy to play as a 2nd CB to Luiz, let alone as 3rd CB).

12 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

3 out of 17 goals scored for Chelsea in the PL and Europe.

3 direct free kicks, but quite a few of Alonso's goals came from corners or free kicks where he or another defender (CB) would have been there anyway.

I think the point that people forget is that when you dominate everyone gets a turn in the box, and there are always goals by CMs and defenders (16/17).  When you don't dominate, and especially when you don't expect to win, goals are much more likely to come from breakaways and be scored by the front 3.  
Cahill got 6 goals in 16/17, same as Alonso, and none from 24 in 17/18.  Was that because we played 3 at the back, or because we got a lot of corners?

And I think a lot of people are forgetting just how much abuse Alonso got after 17/18, PFA team or not.  Essentially for playing at LW according to instructions.

 

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Thankfully there have been absolutely no signs of Frank even contemplating 5 at the back in pre season. There is almost zero chance of us seeing it again here and even less chance of it ever being successful in the premier league again. 

The fact that some are still debating it just shows what an awful squad Conte left us with. Drop an attacking player because none of them can score goals so our fullback may score a few more playing in a back 5. Absurd.

One thing people seem to be ignoring is if this was to happen we would have a midfield pairing of any two from Kovacic/Kante/Jorginho/Bakayoko/Drinkwaterer and a front three consisting of players that dont score or create enough goals. There would be no Cesc, no Diego, no Hazard. What worked for Conte would be disastrous for Frank.

If the answer to scoring more goals is playing more defenders then we are in more trouble than I thought.

Edited by Martin1905

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10 minutes ago, Martin1905 said:

The fact that some are still debating it just shows what an awful squad Conte left us with.

QFT

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7 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

I think the point that people forget is that when you dominate everyone gets a turn in the box, and there are always goals by CMs and defenders (16/17).  When you don't dominate, and especially when you don't expect to win, goals are much more likely to come from breakaways and be scored by the front 3.  

Last season we dominated possession, didn't play a counter attacking style at all and the defenders cumulatively scored at half the rate of the previous two seasons, when playing counter attack.  Seems like the opposite.

6 hours ago, Martin1905 said:

One thing people seem to be ignoring is if this was to happen we would have a midfield pairing of any two from Kovacic/Kante/Jorginho/Bakayoko/Drinkwaterer and a front three consisting of players that dont score or create enough goals. There would be no Cesc, no Diego, no Hazard. What worked for Conte would be disastrous for Frank.

What you are ignoring is while RLC is out then the only alternative additions to that midfield are Barkley and Mount, while potentially being shaken at the back too. Unless you propose to play Pedro Willian Pulisic together every game which isn't sustainable. Alternatively you play a diamond and replace two wingers with a midfielder who never scores or creates anything and another striker that doesn't score enough. God forbid we should look for goals from elsewhere.

6 hours ago, Martin1905 said:

The fact that some are still debating it just shows what an awful squad Conte left us with.

 

6 hours ago, Droy was my hero said:

QFT

Ah we've reached that point of the discussion, and only 3 pages in! I'm out.

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14 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

 

Ah we've reached that point of the discussion, and only 3 pages in! I'm out.

Four legs good , two legs bad .

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26 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

What you are ignoring is while RLC is out then the only alternative additions to that midfield are Barkley and Mount, while potentially being shaken at the back too. Unless you propose to play Pedro Willian Pulisic together every game which isn't sustainable. Alternatively you play a diamond and replace two wingers with a midfielder who never scores or creates anything and another striker that doesn't score enough. God forbid we should look for goals from elsewhere.

I'm  not ignoring anything. If the choice, until RLC and CHO are fit is to play Mount/Barkley as a  number 10 or play 5 at the back then the first choice wins for me. Hands down. 

I genuinely dont think it matters what formation we play, in terms of scoring, we are not going to score many goals this season but I'd like to see us at least have a go rather than playing defensive football with more defenders on the pitch than attackers.

I'd like to see us play a high pressing, high tempo game with a fluid front line and solid midfield pairing and I think we saw today that is exactly what we are attempting to do. 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Martin1905 said:

 

I'd like to see us play a high pressing, high tempo game with a fluid front line and solid midfield pairing and I think we saw today that is exactly what we are attempting to do. 

 

 

 

That's what I thought too , we showed some real glimpses of what we are capable of today .

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2 hours ago, Lump Of Celery said:

Last season we dominated possession, didn't play a counter attacking style at all and the defenders cumulatively scored at half the rate of the previous two seasons, when playing counter attack.  Seems like the opposite.

We had the ball in our own half, that is a long way short of dominating like Champions.

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

Four legs good , two legs bad .

30 legs good , 22 legs bad.

1 hour ago, Martin1905 said:

I'd like to see us play a high pressing, high tempo game with a fluid front line and solid midfield pairing and I think we saw today that is exactly what we are attempting to do. 

I look forward to watching it.  Sounds very brave, and especially brave against Barca.

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